Assault rifles and military-style semi-automatics have been banned in New Zealand

Man of Honour
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Well I'm not really interested in arguments about the general tone of the thread. I've not said we should ban all guns either so it seems a bit pointless to come out with nonsense about limiting cars to 30mph when quoting me in order to make some general point about some argument I've not even put forth.

The reasoning is all there in my posts so thanks for the nonsense comment but seeing your edits above seeing you jumping straight to rubbishing based on a few keywords from my posts says it all.

Generally I was expanding on the relevance of such things as cars in the direction these kind of debates go - some direct comparisons might be a bit faulty but not without some relevance when people start boiling the car argument down to the typical needs rationale.

What harm would be done by banning cars travelling over 30? Quite significant social and economic harm.

What kind of social harm? economically it can be dealt with without people needing faster cars with things like changing the way we work and the use of public transport, etc. (I'm not saying it is a good idea but when you boil down the rationale...).
 
Soldato
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This thread is such meta OCUK with the direction (or lack thereof) it has moved in. Barely even coherent now :p

Good on NZ banning them, there is no justifiable reason a private individual needs such a weapon. Even better ban all guns but until then a good step in the the right direction.
 
Capodecina
Soldato
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This thread is such meta OCUK with the direction (or lack thereof) it has moved in. Barely even coherent now :p

Good on NZ banning them, there is no justifiable reason a private individual needs such a weapon. Even better ban all guns but until then a good step in the the right direction.
You're not really entering into the spirit of GD are you?
 
Caporegime
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The reasoning is all there in my posts so thanks for the nonsense comment but seeing your edits above seeing you jumping straight to rubbishing based on a few keywords from my posts says it all.

Generally I was expanding on the relevance of such things as cars in the direction these kind of debates go - some direct comparisons might be a bit faulty but not without some relevance when people start boiling the car argument down to the typical needs rationale.

Why were you quoting me then if you're not actually making an argument in response to what I've said? It is nonsense - you've quoted me multiple times to put forth some inane point about limiting cars to 30mph and it turns out it was apparently in response to some argument I've not put forth... what a waste of time.

If you had, you'd not then be getting upset that we're not addressing what you posted.
[...]
So start your own about whatever specific points to want to argue, rather than complain when we carry on with our own instead of switching to yours.

Eh? You're quoting me... if you're not actually responding to something I've said then why quote me?



It does seem that the gun lobby in this thread doesn't really have an argument so instead we get utter guff along the lines of "cars kill people too", "chemicals are bad", "why not limit cars to 30 mph"

You might perhaps be better off with:

"People should be allowed to own semi automatic rifles because...."

Though I think we all know that that argument is going to turn out to be a rather weak one so instead we have all the other nonsense.
 
Man of Honour
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Why were you quoting me then if you're not actually making an argument in response to what I've said? It is nonsense - you've quoted me multiple times to put forth some inane point about limiting cars to 30mph and it turns out it was apparently in response to some argument I've not put forth... what a waste of time.

It is relevant to what you said even if not an argument directly to what you said - and not at all inane if you bother to follow the reasoning.

"why not limit cars to 30 mph"
"People should be allowed to own semi automatic rifles because...."

Can you not see the problem here?

A reduction in needles deaths

Ban drugs?

So what is material here in terms of the rational for what should and shouldn't be limited/banned/restricted?
 
Soldato
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Things that have no practical purpose in everyday life and that are used in mass murder?

Ohh and the fact the majority of citizens are in favour of stricter gun control, EVEN in the US!
Doesn't sound very democratic or fair when the wish's of the majority are being blocked by NRA lobbyists and corrupt/bought politicians !!

34O3bUV.png

The survey was conducted both before and after this month's mass shooting at two mosques in New Zealand. It found that 67 percent of Americans support making US gun laws stricter, while 22 percent say they should be left as they are and 10 percent think they should be made less strict.
Source = https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/poll-majority-of-americans-favor-stricter-gun-laws-03-25-2019
 
Caporegime
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It is relevant to what you said even if not an argument directly to what you said - and not at all inane if you bother to follow the reasoning.

There doesn't seem to be much reasoning so far... what was it in relation to then? Because before you claimed:

I'm not so much talking about the semi-auto restrictions as such but the general tone of anti-gun sentiment that comes up in these threads

If you're making these silly arguments about limiting cars to 30mph in relation to the general tone of the thread then why quote me? If you're not and it does have some meaningful point in relation to what I've said then please do elaborate...
 
Caporegime
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Ban drugs?

So what is material here in terms of the rational for what should and shouldn't be limited/banned/restricted?


Drugs are already banned for precisely that reason.

The rational is guns are desigend to kill people and animals, and only a few select use cases exist for their ownership in highly controlled situations. There is zero need for the general public to own a firearm
 
Man of Honour
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Drugs are already banned for precisely that reason.

Was ribbing about your spelling of needless.

The rational is guns are desigend to kill people and animals, and only a few select use cases exist for their ownership in highly controlled situations. There is zero need for the general public to own a firearm

My point is though when you start down that rationale of need versus potential for danger where do you stop? getting from A to B in a vehicle is a practical purpose, the speed at which you do it might not be. But also how material is the intention with the invention of something? technically a competition rifle is designed from the ground up for target shooting - that it can kill is entirely incidental.
 
Soldato
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One thing that's quite apparent in this thread, is that some people are against there being rules or regulations, in the sense that they should be allowed access to anything they want, in some cases where the only reason may simply be 'for fun' or 'because I want it'. Just because a minority might misbehave and cause disaster, that shouldn't affect the majority who ultimately behave - I understand that view.

However.

You have to draw the line somewhere, not because we should sacrifice our rights and become slaves to a tyrannical government, but because you simply have to draw the line, if you want a sensible, civilised society where it's citizens can afford a reasonable level of protection and safety. If you don't or can't draw the line somewhere, you essentially open up the ability for people to have what they want, which may make people feel free or liberated somehow, but would the ability to own or do anything you like with no sensible rules - really translate into a better or reasonable society worth living in?

People posting in here, who support the idea that civilians should have general access to weapons which are derived from things used on a battlefield, probably haven't thought about how it would feel, if some of their loved ones were wiped out in a school shooting such as Newton or Parkland, via an attacker using such a thing. A bereaved individual in such a situation, would be well within their rights to look towards their leaders (the government) and ask "What can we do to prevent this" then expect their leaders to come up with sensible rules and legislation that attempt to prevent a reoccurrence, because that's what leaders are there to do, that's why we elect them, that's why we have laws and rules that we enforce.

Where would a reasonable person expect their leaders to focus their energy? Mental health, social equality, education, would all be prime candidates for attention, however I get the impression that some people on here, would expect their leaders to look at these issues - yet somehow turn a blind eye to the fact that it might be just a little excessive, to allow weapons of war (or close enough to be) into the hands of civilians.

They often make the point that "guns don't kill, people kill" to attempt to advance an argument that banning or imposing further controls on something won't make any difference, because nothing other than the person is to blame, however I think that ignores how people really behave.

In the wake of Sandy Hook, Dr Rowan Williams (then Archbishop of Canterbury) spoke on thought for the day back in 2012, and I think what he said stayed with me for a very long time, because for me it crystallised the whole issue and allowed me to understand it much more deeply. I'd urge anyone who wants to sit behind the 'guns don't kill, people kill' argument, to at least give 3 minutes to what he says on it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0138b5h
 
Caporegime
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Responding to something you say and addressing a point you try to raise are two different things. I responded to what you said in response to me, but in keeping with the line I was originally on with someone else rather than switching to whatever it was you wanted to talk about instead.

No, you claimed:

Your specific claim might not be, but that's the general way the sentiment is being pushed... and the easiest solution.
Either way, it's still of little use when the sort of people to commit these crimes will simply find other ways.

In which case why quote me if you're actually just going to make an argument based on the "general way the sentiment is being pushed"

So ban them.
Just don't bitch about it when we ban more things.
"If it saves even one life"... That's gonna be my new liberal life-loving motto, I think.

And there we go with another straw man argument....
 
Man of Honour
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Ohh and the fact the majority of citizens are in favour of stricter gun control, EVEN in the US!
Doesn't sound very democratic or fair when the wish's of the majority are being blocked by NRA lobbyists and corrupt/bought politicians !!

This is something I find frustrating in both directions - there is no realistic way for most people to choose what kind of society they live in in that respect and there isn't anything intrinsically wrong or right wanting more or less gun control within reason in itself.

People posting in here, who support the idea that civilians should have general access to weapons which are derived from things used on a battlefield, probably haven't thought about how it would feel, if some of their loved ones were wiped out in a school shooting such as Newton or Parkland, via an attacker using such a thing. A bereaved individual in such a situation, would be well within their rights to look towards their leaders (the government) and ask "What can we do to prevent this" then expect their leaders to come up with sensible rules and legislation that attempt to prevent a reoccurrence, because that's what leaders are there to do, that's why we elect them, that's why we have laws and rules that we enforce.

Personally it is something I've thought about quite a bit - but like with car speeds or owning knives or what have you I personally think a healthy society has a little freedom on these things. If I had a loved one killed by a speeding driver or a madmen with a firearm it would be devastating and I might question the appropriateness of the relevant regulations but I wouldn't be reducing it down to purely practical purpose or need.


Assuming the transcript below is the one (I can't play the audio itself due to it requiring an older flashplayer) I'm not a fan of his thinking though well meant and thoughtful for instance:

"If all you have is a gun, everything looks like a target." (acknowledging that he partly aims that at the arms trade and probably partly aimed at troubled parts of the world, etc.) while it might be appropriate for a minority of gun owners is a horrible misconception of what people use firearms for recreationally or the mentality of the average gun enthusiast.

"Perhaps that’s why, in a passage often heard in church around this time of year, the Bible imagines a world where swords are beaten into ploughshares. In the new world which the newborn child of Christmas brings into being, weapons are not left to hang on the wall, suggesting all the time that the right thing to do might after all be to use them. They are decommissioned, knocked out of shape, put to work for something totally different."

Again while well meant is a poor understanding of why a lot of people own guns and the way they are used - the vast majority of gun owners are putting those guns to work for something totally different compared to what they would be as weapons of war.
 
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Caporegime
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This is something I find frustrating in both directions - there is no realistic way for most people to choose what kind of society they live in in that respect and there isn't anything intrinsically wrong or right wanting more or less gun control within reason in itself.



Personally it is something I've thought about quite a bit - but like with car speeds or owning knives or what have you I personally think a healthy society has a little freedom on these things. If I had a loved one killed by a speeding driver or a madmen with a firearm it would be devastating and I might question the appropriateness of the relevant regulations but I wouldn't be reducing it down to purely practical purpose or need.

And what you think is idealism, it does not exist.

Every single time a disaster happens, it is inevitable it will force action, regardless of outcome to at least save face.

This cycle is inherent with human nature and power structures. It will continue as long as we make decisions.
 
Man of Honour
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And what you think is idealism, it does not exist.

Every single time a disaster happens, it is inevitable it will force action, regardless of outcome to at least save face.

This cycle is inherent with human nature and power structures.

And as much as anything a lot of my posts are advocating breaking out of the cycle and not just going through reactionary measures what might make sense in the short term or within narrow parameters but might not be the best for broader long term outlook.
 

SPG

SPG

Soldato
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Its a bloody gun it has two purposes,

1 - Kill / Mame
2 - Target shooting

A cars purpose is to get from A to B in general terms getting from A to B does not involve normally Killing/Mame or Target practice with cones.

You can quite happily plink away with a 177 air rifle test your skillz.....

So that is now covered lets tighten UK gun laws even more.
 
Caporegime
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And as much as anything a lot of my posts are advocating breaking out of the cycle and not just going through reactionary measures what might make sense in the short term or within narrow parameters but might not be the best for broader long term outlook.

Which will never happen, especially not in democracies, which must abide by a concensus of ethics, which changes with every breath.

It sucks for the minority it inevitably sidelines, but that’s the trade off, if people would partake in democracies in the ideal manner this wouldn’t even be an issue, as people would invariably accept the zeitgeist until such a time they can persuade enough people to change legislation for more freedom.

You cannot simply expect idealism from non-ideal emotional people, unless you wish to only elect psycopathics.
 
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