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Asus issues BIOS update to solve Intel CPU game crashing.

Man of Honour
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suggests that out of the box pre overclocking for Intel motherboards is over
In buildzoid's video he said the problem is that Intel only recommends their factory settings, but not requires and I note that in their statement they're still using the word recommends, albeit with strongly attached to it.

It seems like a no-brainer to me though, at the very least the BIOS should have a pop-up, e.g. "Asus overclocked settings enabled, press Y to keep, or N to use Intel/factory defaults".
 
Caporegime
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In buildzoid's video he said the problem is that Intel only recommends their factory settings, but not requires and I note that in their statement they're still using the word recommends, albeit with strongly attached to it.

It seems like a no-brainer to me though, at the very least the BIOS should have a pop-up, e.g. "Asus overclocked settings enabled, press Y to keep, or N to use Intel/factory defaults".

The problem is they are like that out of the box, even if there was such a thing you're not going to get that warning if all you're doing is going in to the BIOS to set XMP.

They are pre-overclocking the CPU while the motherboard is in the factory. And by a lot.
 
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Caporegime
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By Intel's validation they are supposed to run at 125 watts with a power level state boost of 250 watts for a few seconds, they are run at that 250 watt PL state 24/7 out of the box, a 125 watt overclock.

With Intel's recommended BIOS.

1SZUyzO.png
 
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Caporegime
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Not only are they becoming unstable as games are increasingly hard on the CPU but they are probably also slowly cocking themselves and Intel offer a 3 year no quibble return and replace warranty service.

Its also Intel's fault because there is no way they didn't know what was going on, all they had to do was look at benchmark results, they turned a blind eye to it, if not encouraged it.
 
Man of Honour
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The problem is they are like that out of the box, even if there was such a thing you're not going to get that warning if all you're doing is going in to the BIOS to set XMP.

They are pre-overclocking the CPU while the motherboard is in the factory. And by a lot.
Yeah, that's true, it could be a message when you first start the PC. Though, I expect a lot of users would just press Y to such a message and then think nothing of it.

for a few seconds
The duration is what I was referring to in my earlier posts: TAU.

TAU is not limited for K CPUs since 12th gen, so that's not an overclock according to Intel (they recommend, but do not require: 56 seconds), but there are multiple other settings that are being applied that are overclocks.

Buildzoid also mentioned there are other specs that no manufacturer seems to be paying attention to, like the current limits, which any one of these ignored recommendations can contribute to instability if the CPUs are being binned with these limits enabled.

I believe this is the same article as your quote:
""One thing to note is that the sample used by the media is a QS sample, which has a short power limit set to 188w, while it should be expected to be at 253W"
 
Caporegime
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Take my GPU as an example.

Its an MCM GPU so i'll explain what on the GPU die and what isn't.
In MSI OSD AMD report the total board power, that's the core, the MCM chips, the power stages, the Memory IC's, the fans.... everything , it has a TDP rating of 260 Watts, i've never seen it pull more than 250, usually around >240, stock.

GPU Core Power: 127 watts
GPU SoC power: 43 watts
GPU USR Power: i don't know what that is so i'll add it here: 14 watts

That's it, 184 watts total. that die is 200mm

The rest.
GPU Memory Power VDDIO: those are the IMC's: 30 watts
GPU Memory Power VDDCI_Mem: memory IC's: 12 watts

The rest to make up the 268 watt board power draw (its overclocked) will be board components not listed, which includes the fans.

So 184 watts for a 200mm die (This is overclocked) here the GPU is running at 63c, its a good cooler.
--------

The 14900K is 250mm, its pulling 287 Watts in Blender, 200 watts in Cyberpunk, holy ____!

Doesn't seem too bad for a 250mm die, however most of that power is concentrated in this area. An area less than half of the die. I don't know what that heat density is but its probably double what mine is, its why they are so difficult to cool.

7lI1Pbd.jpeg


ztuO8uv.png


 
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Man of Honour
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The 14900K is 250mm, its pulling 287 Watts in Blender, 200 watts in Cyberpunk, holy ____!

Doesn't seem too bad for a 250mm die, however most of that power is concentrated in this area. An area less that half of the die. I don't know what that heat density is but its probably double what mine is, its why they are so difficult to cool.
Funnily enough, in Buildzoid's video he mentioned that the throttling (power and/or heat) is maybe an important factor in the binning being valid, since he said that he knows people who buy a bunch of these CPUs for their PCs and on "out of box" settings a large number of the samples will fail to run Cinebench. When the recommended settings are applied it throttles them down to the point that they don't run in an unstable config anymore.

That's just crazy to me, if you're relying on the red lining to bin the CPU! It shows how far these things are being pushed beyond the voltage/efficiency curve they were probably intended to run at. AMD don't need to be involving themselves in these shenanigans.
 
Caporegime
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Funnily enough, in Buildzoid's video he mentioned that the throttling (power and/or heat) is maybe an important factor in the binning being valid, since he said that he knows people who buy a bunch of these CPUs for their PCs and on "out of box" settings a large number of the samples will fail to run Cinebench. When the recommended settings are applied it throttles them down to the point that they don't run in an unstable config anymore.

That's just crazy to me, if you're relying on the red lining to bin the CPU! It shows how far these things are being pushed beyond the voltage/efficiency curve they were probably intended to run at. AMD don't need to be involving themselves in these shenanigans.

Right, AMD just need to keep doing what they are doing....
 
Man of Honour
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Right, AMD just need to keep doing what they are doing....
Yeah, he noted that they mandate their specs too and that no board he has tried ever set the current or power limits outside of AMD's specs, whereas with Intel boards, pretty much all the enthusiast boards break the Intel specs!
 
Soldato
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By Intel's validation they are supposed to run at 125 watts with a power level state boost of 250 watts for a few seconds, they are run at that 250 watt PL state 24/7 out of the box, a 125 watt overclock.

With Intel's recommended BIOS.

1SZUyzO.png
My Asus z790 dark hero motherboard default boost power settings is for only 96 seconds

So which motherboards do you know of which runs the boost settings for 24/7
 
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Man of Honour
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Its supposed to be 25 seconds.
It isn't. chaparral's sig says the CPU is a 14900K.

Intel's 13th/14th gen datasheet (* see below, page 98) states a recommended TAU of 56 seconds for 125 watt (i9 K) and 150 watt (i9 KS) CPUs.


But like I said earlier, that's just a recommendation and an extended turbo is not considered an overclock/out of spec:
(Turbo Time Parameter - TAU, p78)
"During a maximum power turbo event, the processor could sustain PL2 for a duration longer than the turbo time parameter."

I didn't watch the video you linked, but it is from 10th gen and the PL1/PL2/TAU rules are not the same for 12th-14th gen. Anandtech's platform articles are usually the most thorough and they include an Intel slide that shows in the graph that it can have infinite TAU:
Intel is now so confident in its turbo performance, that the new K processors have a default guideline of an unlimited turbo.

My Asus z790 dark hero motherboard default boost power settings is for only 96 seconds

So which motherboards do you know of which runs the boost settings for 24/7
Your motherboard should hold an infinite boost, but it depends what PL1/PL2/TAU settings and power/current limits you have, it also has to be within the allowed temperature and power envelope or the turbo may disable, but since you said that it is 96 seconds specifically, that suggests you have TAU set to this value.
 
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Caporegime
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Its still not 96 seconds.

We all know why these limited boost timers exist, its to make them look better than they are on bar charts, because reviewers don't benchmark anything for more than a minute. Intel shenanigans.

If what @chaparral says is true then if he lets R23 loop for 10 minutes instead of just one 30 second run he's no longer scoring 40K (as every single review shows) but around 30K, he bought it believing its a 40K CPU. I would call that at best misleading. At worst a cynical lie.
 
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Soldato
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Its still not 96 seconds.

We all know why these limited boost timers exist, its to make them look better than they are on bar charts, because reviewers don't benchmark anything for more than a minute.

If what @chaparral says is true then if he lets R23 loop for 10 minutes instead of just one 30 second run he's no longer scoring 40K (as every single review shows) but around 30K, he bought it believing its a 40K CPU. I would call that at best misleading. At worst a cynical lie.
Thats far fetched. Even a gimped 250w pl2 13900k will still score high 38 to 39k..

Mine has been solid in gaming, rendering, ycruncher and cinebench at 6ghz 4 core and 5.7 all..

The reason these chips have have issues is when the bios on Auto as ASUS (and others) like to ram 1.4 to 1.45 volts through the CPU's neck which is WAAAY ott...
 
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Caporegime
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Thats far fetched. Even a gimped 250w pl2 13900k will still score high 38 to 39k..

Mine has been solid in gaming, rendering, ycruncher and cinebench at 6ghz 4 core and 5.7 all..

The reason these chips have have issues is when the bios on Auto as ASUS (and others) like to ram 1.4 to 1.45 volts through the CPU's neck which is WAAAY ott...

125 watts vs 287 watts (quote Gamers Nexus) its not far fetched at all, its reality, you don't even need anyone to put that to the test to realise it, its obvious.

1SZUyzO.png


You see this, you can loop that in R23 all day long and it will come out the other end scoring with in a couple of % what the review bar charts show, around 40K.
 
Soldato
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125 watts vs 287 watts (quote Gamers Nexus) its not far fetched at all, its reality, you don't even need anyone to put that to the test to realise it, its obvious.

1SZUyzO.png


You see this, you can loop that in R23 all day long and it will come out the other end scoring with in a couple of % what the review bar charts show, around 40K.
Most people buying a 13900 and 14900 really don't care what TDP is on the box.. If you buy one of them and gimp it to 125 watts, then you should just buy an i5 or AMD equivalent.

saying that the games I play, I see mostly 80 to 110watts on the cpu, so 125watt limit wouldn't make much difference in that.

I'm not an intel fanboi either, I got both systems here - they have their pros and cons

If I was to recommend a CPU for gaming, I would say the 7800x3d is the choice..

If you do work and gaming etc, then Intel is the way to go..
 
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Caporegime
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Most people buying a 13900 and 14900 really don't care what TDP is on the box.. If you buy one of them and gimp it to 125 watts, then you should just buy an i5 or AMD equivalent.

saying that the games I play I see mostly 80 to 110watts on the cpu, so 125watt limit wouldn't make much difference in that.

I'm not an intel fanboi either, I got both systems here - they have their pros and cons

If I was to recommend a CPU for gaming, I would say the 7800x3d is the choice..

If you do work and gaming etc, then Intel is the way to go..

I didn't say you were, i didn't even think that. I don't think @chaparral is either. :)

What annoys me, what gets me worked up are these cynical shenanigans, its cynical because they are taking advantage of people why unlike sad no life ______ like me aren't nerdy enough to be clued in to all this ____ I talked about all this on this forum long before the inevitable that is happening now, even before Steve Burke did in the above video.

Its narcissistic bordering on sociopathic.

I'll be honest with you, i don't like Intel, as a company, never have, but i have good reason to.
 
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Soldato
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I didn't say you were, i didn't even think that. I don't think @chaparral is either. :)

What annoys me, what gets me worked up are these cynical shenanigans, its cynical because they are taking advantage of people why unlike sad no life ______ like me aren't nerdy enough to be clued in to all this ____ I talked about all this on this forum long before the inevitable that is happening now, even before Steve Burke did in the above video.
You are right there.. I've always pointed the finger at the likes of Asus for pushing too many volts at CPU's with their Auto settings. People defended Asus on this, but pushing upwards of 1.45volts at a stock CPU to get the most out of it short term to make them selves look like the faster motherboard is taking the ****
 
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