Asus P5Q-E (P45) Motherboard Review

The Tech Repository said:
Intel processors and chipsets have split power planes that allow setting the I/O operating voltage (VTT) to an independent fixed value even though the CPU may be operating at a higher core voltage (VCC). As overclockers we can use this to our advantage.

VTT (FSB Termination Voltage) provides the low level signaling bias needed for the processors, chipsets, and all other devices on the bus to communicate. The FSB is the electrical interface that connects the processor to the chipset (also called the processor system bus or the system bus). All memory and I/O transactions as well as interrupt messages pass between the processor and chipset over the FSB.

Each die (note that Kentsfield has two dies) must be supplied with two separate GTL reference levels - one for the data bus and one for the address bus.



I think I've got my head around it, it would appear the Intel® P45 Express Chipset has more Bells n Whistles than I originally thought! The above diagram was used to help people do some vMods to adjust the different GTLRef separately . . . however this comes as standard on the Intel® P45 Express Chipset :)

So to answer my own question

Ref0 is for data
Ref1 is for addresses


Didn't know anything about this until yesterday, a Chip has a Data Bus *and* an Address Bus. The Data Bus is slower but more sensitive to incorrect GTLRef and the Address Bus is faster but maybe not as sensitive to bad GTLRef.

I'm still getting my head around all this but I can say that this knowledge has made a *MASSIVE* difference to the voltages I originally had set. I will post more back and results once I understand what I'm talking about heh! :o

[edit] Oh yeah and the NB GTL Ref is relating to main vTT and not vNB!
 
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Hey setter, couple of quick questions . . .

Do you know what your key voltages were when you made that screenie pls? (was PCI-E and SB volts on Auto?).

Also have you tried lowering tRD (aka Performance Level) from 13 to 10? :)
Bigwayne, regarding the memory performance level, in my screenshot that you quoted, dropping it from 13 to 10, or 8 or 9 as cob has suggested, is that the part in your bios shot listed as 2nd information on your previous post with the pics of settings, im currenly running my rig at stock, but i have a bios profile saved for 3.6ghz (stable fft setings) 9x400, ive got some pc8500 ram now (ocz reaper 2.1v @5-5-5-15) im gonna load that profile and have a play with the memory and get away from running 1.1 ratio, my quad is capable of 3.8ghz, but i find it pointless going to that speed unless for benching.
 
regarding the memory performance level
tRD

aka

Ai Transaction Booster

aka

Performance Level

asustrd.gif




Adjust it in Windows using Memset, every two drops (i.e from 12 to 10) produces a noticable decrease in latency and increased bandwidth. It places more strain on the MCH/Northbridge so to get uBerness out of it you may need a drop more vNB. If you go to low your PC will lockup . . . however after a reboot everything is back to normal!

I'm not sure if you can go below tRD 10 when running 1:1 memory but get the memory async and running fast and it will go down to tRD 8 maybe even less!

Once you worked it out with Memset you can then permanently set it in BIOS.

im currenly running my rig at stock
It's a good chance for you to work out your chips True VID, also a golden opportunity for you to begin looking into GTL-Refs, your never gonna get that chip to 4.0Ghz using low volts without that knowledge!

If working your way up again set the three GTL Refs to x0.63 / x0.67 / x0.63 and see what happens! :p

ive got some pc8500 ram now (ocz reaper 2.1v @5-5-5-15)
DDR2-1066 (533 MHz) CAS 5 = 9.4 ns - Dual (128-bit) 8,528MB/s
DDR2-1200 (600 MHz) CAS 5 = 8.3ns - Dual (128-bit) 9,600MB/s
DDR2-1000 (500 MHz) CAS 4 = 8.0ns - Dual (128-bit) 8,000MB/s

9.4ns is a bit poop now mate although shifting well over 8GB of data a second is nothing to be sniffed at, I'm over 10GB a second and am turning my attention to latency (low ns). There is a connection with tRD (above) and the latency of your memory and I'm thinking they both need to be low to get the finest results!
 
  • Intel® Core™2 Duo E8400
  • Thermalright Ultra 120 eXtreme
  • Akasa 120mm 4-Pin PWM Smart fan
  • ASUS P5Q-E
  • Crucial 2GB (2x1GB) PC2-5300 Tenth Anniversary
  • Sapphire HD4670 Ultimate
  • Antec Earthwatts 380
  • Sharkoon Silent Eagle 80/2000's and 120/1000
e8400true01.jpg


13000040ghz2.gif


Ah finally!

Two new personal milestones achieved . . .

4.0GHz Processing
2GHz System Bus

Lol I know I am very late doing this but better late than never I say! :o

It looks so easy when you see everybodies elses screenies but when you get down to it the task isn't as easy as you think! :(

Basically after a good week or two fiddling I almost gave up and retreated back to 450MHz-FSB but the same problems plagued me, namely most games would randomly FREEZE

In the end I had to really do my homework and look into Ye Dark Art of GTL tweaking and thank god I did . . . once I took the three GTL settings off [Auto] things started to go my way, slowly but surely I was able to get the machine posting at a uBer low vTT and also managed to reduce vNB from a ridiculous 1.46v to a more sensible 1.18v :cool:

After getting my head around GTL Refs it seems I have managed to clock up from 3.6GHz (9x400) to 4.0GHz (8x500) with minimal voltage increase (vCore, PLL and vNB).

There are all sorts of overclocking possibilities open now and I'm not sure which way I'm gonna go, more FSB sounds like its worth a crack but also I think there is a bit more left in this E8400! :p Had it quickly up to 4.5GHz but it failed Prime quickly. It was just a quick test and I supect with a bit of GTL tweakage it may just be possible! :eek:

I also need to have a crack at DDR2-1333 (666MHz) to get me some 7.5ns action as well as reducing tRD from 10 to 8 (maybe lower). I'm very keen to keep going but may take a few days off to enjoy the system, breaking new ground is fun but the endless testing (24 hour primes etc) is really grating after a while so a small break is much needed!

Very happy with the system right now and glad I managed to get over that hump. The ASUS P5Q-E is a very good board to work with and one day I will figure out why it couldn't get my GTL settings right using [Auto] lol! ;)
 
I have mine set to 0.63 on both GTL's for CPU and my system is crash free :)

Didnt go through a phase of testing, just saw what some guy had done on XS and copied :D

E8400/P5Q-E

FSB: 445
Vcore: 1.3v
NB: 1.3v
Vtt: 1.28v
Pll_1.6v
 
Well the theory makes a bit more sense, but the practical application still eludes me, especially the balancing act between GTL and voltage.

Wayne, it would be really helpful if you could sketch out the steps you took to achieve your goal, e.g. did you keep your voltages the same and try out the different GTLs first, or drop voltages and then try the GTLs to see if you could get it stable. Did you do NB GTL first or CPU? How long did it take before you were confident you'd cracked it?

All the posts I've seen either assume that the steps and stages are obvious, or show someone has just copied what they've seen somebody else using.

Thanks for keeping us in the loop, and nice clock. Bet you're glad you went back to the Asus now.

P
 
Hey Darkman,

I have begun to write an explaination a few times but they are too complicated. If I had a deep understanding of the whole GTL thing it would be easy for me to relay that to you guys, I am also aprehensive about sharing information that is incorrect or not 100% tested as that would do you no favours.

I'll blabber for a bit and hopefully you can pick something useful out from it! :o

The GTL's are reference voltages, they are based on a percentage of the main (master) FSB-Termination voltage. In the screen shot above you can see by default the three GTL refs are

0.63x - Ref0/Processor Data Bus
0.67x - Ref1/Processor Address Bus
0.63x - Northbridge Data Bus

Ok just that bit of information is confusing enough, firstly I didn't know a Processor has two Buses? but they do, one for Data and one for Memory addressing. The Data Bus is slower and very sensitive to being set incorrectly, the Address Bus is faster and quite flexible to not being set quite right. So thats the two GTL's for the chip the last is for the Northbridge which I believe is a Data Bus so again its very picky to being set just so.

The Three GTL ref voltages are derived from the Master FSB-Termination voltage, they are in fact a percentage so instead of thinking 0.63x think 63%

Example 1:

FSB Termination Voltage = 1.10v

0.63x
1.10 x 63% = 0.7623v

0.67x
1.10 x 67% = 0.8107v

0.63x
1.10 x 63% = 0.7623v


Example 2

FSB Termination Voltage = 1.10v

0.72x
1.10 x 72% = 0.8712

0.67x
1.10 x 67% = 0.8107v

0.62x
1.10 x 62% = 0.7502

The difference between example 1 & 2 is that the CPU-Data Bus has had its GTL increase from 63% to 72%, this has changed the voltage ref from 0.7623v to 0.8712v . . . also the NB-GTL has been lowered from 63% to 62% which is a decrease from 0.7623v to 0.7502v . . . . hopefully you follow that so far.

The Three GTL refs that we can change (two for CPU, one for NB) relate to their corresponding voltages, so for the CPU thats vCore and for the Northbridge thats vNB

On a technical level you have to understand this is all about SIGNALS, there are thousands and thousands of frequencies racing up and down every second and they go higher or lower depending on what they are trying to achieve, seperate GTLs provide a reference to these signals so the system is able to descern what the *** is going on, is that a signal for the CPU-Dta BUs or is that a signal for the CPU-Address Bus, the only way it can tell is by the GTL Refs . . .

The ASUS Motherboards I have used so far are very finely tuned up to 400MHz-FSB, you don't need to know what the **** a GTL ref is but once you start venturing above that Frequency you are entering a *personal* no mans land, depending on your specific motherboard, processor, FSB used, memory frequency used etc etc the GTL's will vary, that is why I cannot give you specific settings as they are based on my personal kit!

As anything changes like FSB or voltages you need to re-tune the GTL refs lol! :eek:

It's so technical I am struggling to write a post that makes any sense and something that you can act on, just understand that as you increase FSB it becomes harder and harder to get thousands of *SIGNALS* moving backwards and forwards and not collide with each other . . . . consider this diagram

attachmentf.png


As you move from the left (266MHz-FSB) to the right (450MHz-FSB) you may be able to tell the margin for error becomes less and less, its like trying to fly three fighter jet through a hoop that is 50 yards wide, then 40 yards wide, then 30 yards wide etc, there will come a point where the precision has to be so great that the slightest deviation will cause a crash, what makes this totally mind bogglling is that this is happening several thousand times a second and in both directions! :D

I'm gonna stop there as its a beatiful day and I am sitting here getting frustrated because I cannot explain things how I want and I know this is because I haven't got a firm grasp of the technical stuff.

GTL Tweaking is most likely kept a secret by the top overclockers, anyone who attains a 600MHz-FSB certainly has GTL tweaking down to pat or is utterly jammy . . . there is also the option that its so ******* hard to explain to others most dont even bother!
 
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You have helped explan it a lot (to me anyway).

This will also explain why I couldnt oc my old E4500 in an Asus (p35) I built for my dad. When it was easy in my abit IP35 Pro.

But still so far so good with my setting still no CTDs.
 
it would be really helpful if you could sketch out the steps you took to achieve your goal, e.g. did you keep your voltages the same and try out the different GTLs first, or drop voltages and then try the GTLs to see if you could get it stable
I worked my way up to 400MHz-FSB using absolutely the minimum voltages possible, I wanted to keep hitting a wall and get past it by *manually* adjusting a voltage, this worked great up to 400MHz-FSB, At this point I had No Ideal what GTL's where and all three were left on [Auto]

From 400MHz-FSB I jumped straight to 500MHz-FSB and entered my own personal computing hell! :p

I tried close to a thousand combinations of vTT and vNB and had almost every single error you can imagine from No POST, to crashing XP, to a computer that wouldn't reboot properly etc etc. I reached a plateau several times where it became evident I should give up, I had spent probably two weeks by this stage being totally ****** off, being in a foul mood etc. I got to the point where I had the best results by leaving vTT on full [Auto] and only adjusting vNB. The problem was that to get any level of stability I had to set vNB to 1.46 volts which is just ridiculous. After a day or two just as I thought it was stable Crysis froze on me, then 3DMark froze on me, I wanted to kick the PC around the room Shocky-FM style! :o

The icing on the cake came when I decided that maybe 500MHz-FSB wasn't gonna happen so I backed off to 450MHz-FSB and the same **** kept happening, in short I couldn't get the system *rock-solid* stable even at 450MHz-FSB :confused:

At that point I could see that the results were *erratic* sometimes it would work and sometimes it would freeze, I began to suspect that the motherboard was changing something when I rebooted or switched the PC off so I looked carefully at the settings and noticed three main options right in the Core Voltage areas . . . .GTL Refs, three of them and all on [Auto]

I decided at that point it was most likely that the board was goofing, I mean we all know how the board over-volts the CPU by a very large amount if you overclock and leave the vCore on [Auto] so it stood to reason a similar goof was happening while trying for high FSBs

I did some basic reading up on GTL and then set them manually at their respective % so 0.63x, 0.67x and 0.63x and thats when things started to go my way. The first big breakthrough was changing my CPU-Data0 ref from 63% to 72%, that allowed me to actually boot the PC using 1.20vTT instead of 1.28vTT, once that was tested I just kept lowering the vTT until I got to 1.14v

Did you do NB GTL first or CPU? How long did it take before you were confident you'd cracked it?

My games were still crashing so I started having a go with the NB GTL. The PC wouldn't boot if I raised the NB-GTL from 63% so I went the other way and started lowering it, 62.5% then 62% and found my game no longer crashed, it was the magic setting! :)

The thing that is starting to become obvious to me is that it's not neccassarily the exact GTL-Ref voltage that is set but more how they relate to each other (the three different GTL zones) and their respective main voltage (vCore and vNB).

I still don't know why some of the GTL-Refs need to be raised (i.e CPU-ref0 from 63% to 72%) and others lowered (NB-Data from 63% to 62%).

I've had a week off and left the machines running 24/7 doing some folding and they are rock at 4.0GHz/500MHz-FSB so tonight I am gonna start tweaking again and try either for some extra Processor frequency or see if I can get 600MHz-FSB stable.

I do hope you guys can pick up some scraps of useful info from these gibberings but at the very least go right ahead and change all three GTLs from [Auto] to their defaults. Only change one at a time and only do it by one increment (i.e from 63% to 62.5%), its all very slow to start but you gain speed after a few days heh! :D
 
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I now own the p5q-e, and have clocked my q6600 to 3.0ghz without increasing any voltages (just fsb). Temperatures are really quite impressively low.

Simply amazed at the board as my old p5n32-e sli board was awful.

What sort of speed do you think i could achieve without increasing the voltages too much?
 
Wayne,

For someone who doesn't understand it totally you did a damn fine job of making it make a lot more sense for me. Thank you for taking the time to put those posts together.

I've got a Q9450 sitting in a P5Q Deluxe which will happily do 470FSB but is not interested in going higher. It's not limited by components or temperature, and voltage is not going to make a difference I'm sure even if I was to go mad and shove a load of volts up it's ass. All the reading I've done tells me I'm going to have to tweak the GTLs to go further, I just wasn't sure of the best way to go about this and the efforts I've made so far hadn't been conclusive.

You've interested me enough to give it another go.

Thank you,

P
 
Wayne,

For someone who doesn't understand it totally you did a damn fine job of making it make a lot more sense for me. Thank you for taking the time to put those posts together.

I agree with Darkman.

Now Im tempted to try more or just leave me @ 445 x 9 = 4Ghz.

I want to clock my RAM more than the CPU now really. As 4 Ghz is a good speed.

Again thank you BW.
 
Hey Clairvoyant

would love to give you a simple answer but it's too complex a subject for me to explain lol! :p

Adjusting A-GTL+ Levels - The Tech Repository

Understanding GTL Reference Voltage - edgeofstability.com

Blimey just been and read through the above links, some interesting stuff, I've now gone and set my GTLs to 62%, 66% and 62% respectively to see if I can stop some random pauses that seem to occur when my son opens umpteen copies of Word and Photoshop
 
best board I have ever purchased (so far)...I use the Q6600 with it...and I have gotten it to 3.57GHz and its stable at that speed...its a very nice sturdy board...was recommended by a certain reflux on said forums :D
 
Enjoyed the read, will have a much more thorough go at it some time soon. I have to be honest & say I knew nothing about all this before, great find & @ big wayne, thanks for making it a bit simpler on me old noggin :D
 
I just registered here to say this...............Big.Wayne.........THANK YOU! ;)

That was a laborious effort and the fact that you shared it with all of us was very generous (and beneficial to us). Again, thank you.:)

I started by following your RAM settings and it worked first time. I could not believe my eyes. This was the first time I ever got a 500FSB (and stable at that).
However, following all your settings I could only boot in 6*500, 8*500 wouldn't even POST.
Apparently, all I had to do was reduce the GTL Ref0 back to 0.63 and I was in OC heaven....






As an extra performance boost I've been trying to further tighten the RAM according to this article. However, all I've managed is to bring Performance Level (tRD) down to 7 but not with a full on 8*500 config so I have yet to match the memory bandwidth above.

  1. Has anyone managed anything less than 8 tRD?
  2. Has anyone managed a 24/7 stable E8400 at less than 1.280v?

And once more, Big Wayne, thank you. You have earned my respect.
 
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