At what point do you call it quits on a car?

Mechanics are tradesmen, they’ve been thoroughly trained. There is no trade in the art of building PCs.
Really so everyone when they're kids is a bike mechanic when they fix a puncture/change a tyre/tube/fit a new saddle/bars/forks/bottom bracket? I think not...

Yes anyone can be qualified in anything, doesn't stop people learning themselves, especially not in a generation where you can literally watch it on YT now and have forums etc etc vs just a Haynes manual.

So I can't listen to an audiobook and learn a new language then to be able to speak it? I've gotta have a bit of paper to do it have I and goto a class? Riiight.

So everyone in the... DIY section of this forum is a builder? Oh wait what does DIY stand for...

What a dumb misinformed mindset.
 
So then take the last option I just suggested instead of being selective with your replies, and just buy the parts elsewhere OEM and do it yourself or get quotes elsewhere from garages that will fit parts you supply.

You will save a killing.

You literally asked me earlier how hard it'd be to do with basic tools yourself, I answered that. That applies to fitting springs/shocks/top mounts or coilies, it makes no difference you still have to fully remove the stock units/reassemble them or build new ones and refit, the same as fitting a coilover that comes prebuilt and just needs adjusting, so regardless be it oem/aftermarket/fully rebuilt, the process is the same...

Considering you asked how hard it'd be, I thought you could be tempted to buy some basic tools and save a killing and have said tools to do future things and build up your confidence? That applies to OEM or anything you fit? I mean you are literally whiling to burn £1900 on basic labour/parts at a horrific inflation. So why not give it a go yourself and get the satisfaction/saving of doing it yourself and the bonus of tools to use for various future things? Can't loose.

I am not sure how much of a killing I can get.. I had another look.


$170 EACH. (and if you link another 3rd party coilover part...)

Question - what tools do I need to change the springs? Not to coil overs, but to springs.

Name all the tools, including a spanner or ratchet.

So I need a jack...then something to keep the car up?
Toque Wrench to take the bolts on/off the wheels.

Name it all, price it up. Price it up all Volvo parts I need. What is the total of parts + tools cost.

and I will throw in my time for free.

btw, I am not sure why you are going this deep, I started this thread not to complain about the cost, as I stated in the OP I have already committed. I just am curious as to people when the percentage of repair would make them moving it on. The reason I listed the price is to illustrate a percentage £1900 over the value of the car.

edit - the driveway has a slight 1 to 2 degree incline....not sure if that is safe to jack up the car? I would feel uneasy.
 
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Fitting yourself is not 'easy'.. its only easy if you know how, and people worry about safety, not only hurting themselves if the car falls on top of them, but also their own safety if they don't do the job right..

Building a PC is 'easy' but only if you know how..

It's not intelligence related.

I only do certain jobs on cars myself, I would prefer it done at a garage, but will attempt brakes/basic suspension, alternators, sensors, that kind of thing.. the limit is if I have to try to strip half the suspension down with corroded bolts and don't have all the proper tools.

I will check youtube, find a video of someone doing that job and decide if it looks easy/fairly fool proof then I may have a go if I can save several hundred pounds..

The drop links I did on my daughters Ka was hilariously easy... I saved £280 and it literally took 30 minutes a side never having attempted it before, it took longer to jack it up, put it on axle stands and get the wheel off then it did to undo two easy nuts and replace the drop link..
Which is all the process of learning. Which is all covered whenever you learn something be it in a book/asking someone qualified/watching a video.

It isn't rocket science to pay attention to where to people and axel stand/where to jack a car up safely, what basic PPE to buy, as with doing work on your house or anything? You're majorly grabbing at straws here!

You don't need to check on YT I provided the link before in this thread, open your eyes. It's some top mount bolts like any other shock removal and a pinch bolt you remove and then support the hub with the jack when you refit them, hardly doing a cambelt is it...
 
I just am curious as to people when the percentage of repair would make them moving it on. The reason I listed the price is to illustrate a percentage £1900 over the value of the car.
Personally it's only where there is potential for an unexpectedly large bill e.g. terminal engine or gearbox problem, or significant rust.
Things like cambelts and clutches also have the potential to be not worth doing with things like belt in oil, or clutch + dmf.

With the prices of cars these days, even repair bills of a couple of grand aren't that significant Vs the cost/risk to change to something else.
 
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It isn't rocket science to pay attention to where to people and axel stand/where to jack a car up safely, what basic PPE to buy, as with doing work on your house or anything? You're majorly grabbing at straws here!
I don't think he is - I can do basic bits and pieces in cars - having done an oil change before as well as some other minor things, but even I'm not comfortable jacking up my car - I can't even find a video that shows where to put the axle stand after you've used a trolley jack on the jacking point. "Mechanics" just seem to assume that it's common sense and often omit such details

There's a bit of a difference between getting of building wrong and it not booting Vs getting it wrong when working on a car and dropping it on your head
 
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I am not sure how much of a killing I can get.. I had another look.


$170 EACH.

Question - what tools do I need to change the springs? Not to coil overs, but to springs.

Name all the tools, including a spanner or ratchet.

So I need a jack...then something to keep the car up?
Toque Wrench to take the bolts on/off the wheels.

Name it all, price it up. Price it up all Volvo parts I need. What is the total of parts + tools cost.

and I will throw in my time for free.

btw, I am not sure why you are going this deep, I started this thread not to complain about the cost, as I stated in the OP I have already committed. I just am curious as to people when the percentage of repair would make them moving it on. The reason I listed the price is to illustrate a percentage £1900 over the value of the car.
Are you buying this direct from Sweden or the states as you keep quoting dollars?

I'd ring Volvo directly and see what they say, you might be surprised, is there not a direct volvo parts website via volvo themselves, like honda-parts.com offers for example?

You would want as I said previously, to do everything the YT video I linked you does, so that video WILL help you. As suspension is suspension, a coilover just adds adjustable dampening/ride height adjustments/better parts, but you get my point right, just like a PSU is a PSU, just modular etc offer more features? - as regardless fitting a shock be it stock/aftermarket/coilover is the same removal/replacement procedure.

Tools wise, I'd say a torque wrench, if you're the UK then use screwfix for a nice selection of brands, IIRC I bought a decent Teng Tools one for around £130 2 years ago that will do pretty hardcore torque ratings, basically anything you'll ever need on the driveway.

A pair of Halfords/Euro Car Parts axel stands, 4 if you fancy doing anything bigger in the future/having it fully level if that helps you.

A basic Halfords toolkit, which as I say is lifetime warranty so ideal, some spring compressors (ebay/amazon etc etc), a basic jack, use Euro Car Parts or Halfords anything from £60-120 will do you, if you wanna make it easier get a low entry bigger jack, and just your basic wheel brace/wheel stud/bolt socket you should have in the boot. A wire brush to clean stuff up, some copper grease for the threads on stuff when you've wire brushed/cleaned stuff for reassembly, nothing major really tools wise. But once you have that selection you can do a surprising amount, more than enough for stuff like this and a service on the driveway.

The basics is, you'd follow said video, for guidance of the removal procedure, but applying it to rebuild/building an existing or new shock assembly. So in your case you'd disassemble your existing shock, and swap the new spring/top mount over. OR do that to a brand new shock (which is what I'd recommend over reusing tired old high mileage stuff, and obviously transfer the old shock dust boot/bump stop) then just refit it the same way they fit the coilover, as i've said above a shock is a shock, so the process of removal/refit is the same, you just have the added step of undoing the top mount whilst you have the old spring compressed with the spring compressor, and then compressing a new spring before fitting the new top mount and it's bolt(s) to it, making sure it's all torqued to spec from the manual, and then undoing the spring compressors, then fitting them back on the car like in the video, you can as they show you use a jack to support the hub when refitting it to save having 2 people there or standing on it and faffing about.

The video applies to your model amongst others including fords ;)

It is worth watching just to show you the disassembly/reassembly regardless of OEM shocks/coilovers, removing/fitting shocks/coilies is the same, as I said above only diffference is you're removing an old spring under compression tool and doing the same to fit a new one then adding the new top mount.
 
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Which is all the process of learning. Which is all covered whenever you learn something be it in a book/asking someone qualified/watching a video.

It isn't rocket science to pay attention to where to people and axel stand/where to jack a car up safely, what basic PPE to buy, as with doing work on your house or anything? You're majorly grabbing at straws here!

You don't need to check on YT I provided the link before in this thread, open your eyes. It's some top mount bolts like any other shock removal and a pinch bolt you remove and then support the hub with the jack when you refit them, hardly doing a cambelt is it...

You make it sound like nothing could possibly go wrong.. I'm already 'converted' because I do check out how difficult jobs are and will contemplate doing them myself.. I do a lot of DIY, and I build my own PCs ;)

But, over the years I've had a few nightmare jobs on cars, corroded bolts, snapped bolts, rounded bolts, swiss cheese jacking points, stuck alloys, etc.... hence slowly building up more tools.. but I've massively struggled getting sheared off bolts out or undoing various bodges from garages/previous owners.. and if its your only transport or you lack the tools to recover a bad job, it can be a very inconvenient time..

I can perfectly well understand how its outside some peoples comfort zones.. in the same way DIY is for many, I fit my own kitchens/floors/flooring/electrics and all sorts, but most people I know don't despite it being easy/straight forward with plenty of videos to help.. because its outside their comfort zone..

I don't blame the OP for not doing it himself, even though I'm mostly in the DIY camp and definitely put effort in to saving money when appropriate.
 
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I don't think he is - I can do basic bits and pieces in cars - having done an oil change before as well as some other minor things, but even I'm not comfortable jacking up my car - I can't even find a video that shows where to put the axle stand after you've used a trolley jack on the jacking point. "Mechanics" just seem to assume that it's common sense and often omit such details

There's a bit of a difference between getting of building wrong and it not booting Vs getting it wrong when working on a car and dropping it on your head
Surely you'd just ring the garage you trust and ask them to kindly explain where it is next time you're there/pop in? If you go there all the time I'd HIGHLY doubt they will make this a secret to you, after all you'd want to know where it is when doing a spare wheel at the roadside vs paying for a recovery/waiting hours?

Or just pop in any tyre fitters/garage and ask them? Easy?

I don't know anyone in the trade that wouldn't be happy to show me anything/talk about something they're passionate/skilled in, as with any trade/enthuasist? Sounds like you've had bad luck with dickheads if that's the response you get?

Surprised there isn't a video or a Haynes manual stating how to jack it up, or that it's not in the manual your car comes with in the replacing the spare wheel section that can come with cars in the owners handbook thing.
 
The video applies to your model amongst others including fords ;)

It is worth watching just to show you the disassembly/reassembly regardless of OEM shocks/coilovers, removing/fitting shocks/coilies is the same, as I said above only diffference is you're removing an old spring under compression tool and doing the same to fit a new one then adding the new top mount.
If I had a nice lift, a lovely dry indoor space and more tools, I'd probably do even more jobs like that.. especially when you can see it's a nice clean example.

Now try a sloped driveway in the rain with minimal tools etc.. and sometimes the job loses it's appeal ;)

I've already said I would check out the difficulty and consider doing it myself, but I am generally more mechanically minded than most people I know, and I understand many people like the OP would not feel comfortable doing that because it doesn't always go as planned.
 
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Surprised there isn't a video or a Haynes manual stating how to jack it up, or that it's not in the manual your car comes with in the replacing the spare wheel section that can come with cars in the owners handbook thing.
It's not in the owners handbook as that shows the two jacking points you'd use with the factory jack.
If you use a trolley jack on those points though, then you obviously can't put the axle stand there.
 
You make it sound like nothing could possibly go wrong.. I'm already 'converted' because I do check out how difficult jobs are and will contemplate doing them myself.. I do a lot of DIY, and I build my own PCs ;)

But, over the years I've had a few nightmare jobs on cars, corroded bolts, snapped bolts, rounded bolts, swiss cheese jacking points, stuck alloys, etc.... hence slowly building up more tools.. but I've massively struggled getting sheared off bolts out or undoing various bodges from garages/previous owners.. and if its your only transport or you lack the tools to recover a bad job, it can be a very inconvenient time..

I can perfectly well understand how its outside some peoples comfort zones.. in the same way DIY is for many, I fit my own kitchens/floors/flooring/electrics and all sorts, but most people I know don't despite it being easy/straight forward with plenty of videos to help.. because its outside their comfort zone..

I don't blame the OP for not doing it himself, even though I'm mostly in the DIY camp and definitely put effort in to saving money when appropriate.

There are a few reasons I don't want to do it myself.

1 - Safety, jacking up the car on the drive...which has a slight incline...seems dangerous
2 - It's my only car, even though I walk to work most days now...I can't go without it at the weekend.
3 - inexperienced. I never so much as topped up my oil and screenwash, so it is a few level up from tyres to brakes to suspension.
4 - I have ZERO tools.

I consider myself to be average to above average intelligence, and I am also fully aware of the notion, a 3min job turn into 3 days, or whatever that saying is...seen enough car videos online from AutoAlex to MCM etc to realise sometimes it is just not so easy with old cars, I can see through the editing that it takes them hours. Last year when they did some work on it, they couldn't undo something underneath and the job went onto 2 days as they struggled to get some bolt off. (I forgot what that was now.)

There is also the fact that the garage is local, I drop my car off in the morning, they give me a courtesy car to drive back to work/keep, until I get mine back. If I were to go to the person Keef recommended - Driftworks in Birmingham, B11 2LQ. Then I would have to take a day off to go there. Hoping everything will go right and done in 1 day. (p.s. my car couldn't finish today, didn't have time to do the Service / MOT, so will get it tomorrow). So there is that to consider too. Convenience.

Then I looked at the parts cost, and thinking....£800 for the parts I am looking for, £300 normal service /MOT from previous years, that is £400 in labour, p.s. the cabin filter in the C30 is a PITA. They told me today mid morning that the lower arms needed replacing, I was not aware before the work started. But quick google to find that they are £170 each online, and they said it's £190 so clearly they are basically only charging me for parts for these. (taking their word at face value obviously).
 
You make it sound like nothing could possibly go wrong.. I'm already 'converted' because I do check out how difficult jobs are and will contemplate doing them myself.. I do a lot of DIY, and I build my own PCs ;)

But, over the years I've had a few nightmare jobs on cars, corroded bolts, snapped bolts, rounded bolts, swiss cheese jacking points, stuck alloys, etc.... hence slowly building up more tools.. but I've massively struggled getting sheared off bolts out or undoing various bodges from garages/previous owners.. and if its your only transport or you lack the tools to recover a bad job, it can be a very inconvenient time..

I can perfectly well understand how its outside some peoples comfort zones.. in the same way DIY is for many, I fit my own kitchens/floors/flooring/electrics and all sorts, but most people I know don't despite it being easy/straight forward with plenty of videos to help.. because its outside their comfort zone..

I don't blame the OP for not doing it himself, even though I'm mostly in the DIY camp and definitely put effort in to saving money when appropriate.
Obviously anyone watches a video guide/read a manual before considering doing any work on anything? Thats a given ;)

You would definitely plan for the worst and not attempt it the day before work no, regarding bolts/nuts/fixings I purposely buy all new hardware whenever I do anything so if they snap I can cut them off with a saw/grinder/dremel and put all new on, as with the aforementioned use of copper grease ;) It's just common sense, and if you buy those spares when you buy the parts, then you have a decent fall back.

Yes having 1 vehicle makes the risk higher, but again if you plan for it and at worst arrange a temp use of a family member or friends car/courtesy car etc IF needed, then again you've planned for it?

At worst the OP would get it recovered off the drive and use a courtesy car wouldn't they, or cash in on a lift off a friend/use public transport whilst their car is fixed at the garage it's been recovered to?


Things can go wrong learning anything, but I don't believe in being defeatist. I have self taught myself loads, as has anyone? I think it's ignorant to think people must be qualified to do anything let alone learn, we all grew up building tree houses and we aren't carpenters/builders/ppe didn't exist, we also fixed pushbikes/upgraded them and weren't bike mechanics as a child, the list is endless...

If he's whiling to spend £1900, and from the sound of previous comments I think he's whiling to give it a go himself and invest in some basic tools/ppe/safety/jack and stands, then I think he should, at worst he gets it recovered but as long as he's planned for a day or 2 of inconvience as aforementioned, then it's no big deal if he has that kind of budget to waste being ripped off originally is it.

After all he did ask hence why I provided him with the guide video and options for OEM/aftermarket shocks and springs or coilovers. And OP again has asked me above what would be required. Which I've again answered.
 
It's not in the owners handbook as that shows the two jacking points you'd use with the factory jack.
If you use a trolley jack on those points though, then you obviously can't put the axle stand there.
There's a really simple solution to this, buy some of these, you can find them easily anywhere, depending on what height/length you choose, but they make huge ones that allow you to get an axle stand under ;)
These metal ones here for example are adjustable ;)
IMG00044-20091126-1418.jpg.opt386x289o0,0s386x289.jpg

They also have lock out pins so you wouldnt even 'need' axle stands job depending but can obviously use them purely for getting it high enough to slide one under, you also can get plastic ones for like £25 on the bay/rain forest and drive up both at once to get it nice and high.

What car is it you've got, as a lot of cars have a sneaky welded on plate on the subframes, Honda's do that on the front subframe, then put the rear towing eye welded on piece central at the rear, so you literally have front and rear centred jacking points so you can then put your stands under the sill welded on jacking points or under the wishbone lolypops or chassis rails, whichever suits the job.
 
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You don't have to spend too much to get a decent set of tools.

SOCKET SET: Bahco S240 1/2" set is under £60.

TORQUE WRENCH: For basic suspension stuff, even one from Aldi or Lidl will do. Of course, they're never in stock when you want one so consider a basic 1/2" one from the likes of Clarke (£36), Draper or Sealey. Whichever one you get, do not use it for undoing bolts only for tightening!

TWIST SOCKETS: Absolute game changer for rusty rounded bolts. Even the cheapest unbranded set for under £20 will work very well. See a review by ProjectFarm on YouTube for more details. You'll need a 1/2" to 3/8" adapter to use with the socket set above but they're cheap.

SPANNERS: The Sealey AK63255 set goes from 6mm to 22mm and is under £30. I have sets from Facom and Stahwille but if I need to go to a scrapyard and remove parts of a vehicle, I take my old Sealey set.

LOCKING PLIERS: I like the Milwaukee ones (£15 or less) as you can put a screwdriver in the hole at the end and wind them on incredibly tightly. I've removed rounded bolts with these.

SCREWDRIVERS: I started with a basic set from Halfords (£10 when on offer). The annoying thing about that set though is they include posidrive instead of philips which is not what you need for cars!
 
If I had a nice lift, a lovely dry indoor space and more tools, I'd probably do even more jobs like that.. especially when you can see it's a nice clean example.

Now try a sloped driveway in the rain with minimal tools etc.. and sometimes the job loses it's appeal ;)

I've already said I would check out the difficulty and consider doing it myself, but I am generally more mechanically minded than most people I know, and I understand many people like the OP would not feel comfortable doing that because it doesn't always go as planned.
So you've just been selective about what's mentioned in there I see. Jay mentions throughout if you were to do X part on the driveway you'd do it this way using this instead of this...

Well done you.

The ENTIRE point of linking that video was to show how things come off/go back on. By the leading UK supplier of suspension for all walks of life/motorsports. VS some kid on YT.

I've changed an engine/gearbox/diff/prop/shafts the lot on a gravel driveway and a slippery car park outside, it's not a big deal if you have common sense and have basic things like axle stands/ppe/jacks/wheel chocks.

Do you really think everyone has a unit/perfect driveway.

My driveway is a nightmare and I have to put massive pieces of wood down where it's tarmac so it doesn't dent/damage the drive, but I've managed everything on my cars on there with no air or electric tools - bar a grinder which I didn't have for years. You just take your time and look into things properly/ask those who've done it before/do your research. I am in no way remotely as qualified/good as other people I know, but I just take my time and keep calm and practice good safety and as I say buy anything that can break like hardware/fixings 'just incase' and have a grinder to hand if anything needs removing that snaps/rounds.

It again is just common sense and learning? As with anything...
 
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You don't have to spend too much to get a decent set of tools.

SOCKET SET: Bahco S240 1/2" set is under £60.

TORQUE WRENCH: For basic suspension stuff, even one from Aldi or Lidl will do. Of course, they're never in stock when you want one so consider a basic 1/2" one from the likes of Clarke (£36), Draper or Sealey. Whichever one you get, do not use it for undoing bolts only for tightening!

TWIST SOCKETS: Absolute game changer for rusty rounded bolts. Even the cheapest unbranded set for under £20 will work very well. See a review by ProjectFarm on YouTube for more details. You'll need a 1/2" to 3/8" adapter to use with the socket set above but they're cheap.

SPANNERS: The Sealey AK63255 set goes from 6mm to 22mm and is under £30. I have sets from Facom and Stahwille but if I need to go to a scrapyard and remove parts of a vehicle, I take my old Sealey set.

LOCKING PLIERS: I like the Milwaukee ones (£15 or less) as you can put a screwdriver in the hole at the end and wind them on incredibly tightly. I've removed rounded bolts with these.

SCREWDRIVERS: I started with a basic set from Halfords (£10 when on offer). The annoying thing about that set though is they include posidrive instead of philips which is not what you need for cars!
A reasonable brand socket set is better for smaller stuff to have something a little bit decent hence mentioning halfords, as they do various options/amounts of tools in different packages so you don't have to buy the 120 piece to get started and sell individual and all are lifetime warranty and wont round everything.

Those twist sockets are a god send, Screwfix and pretty much everywhere sells them from as little as £12 and will get you out of any issue. They're a life saver!

Also an impact screwdriver that takes socket extensions/bits is another get you out of the **** life saver! And £9 iirc on the bay!
 
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A reasonable brand socket set is better for smaller stuff to have something a little bit decent hence mentioning halfords, as they do various options/amounts of tools in different packages so you don't have to buy the 120 piece to get started and sell individual and all are lifetime warranty and wont round everything.

Those twist sockets are a god send, Screwfix and pretty much everywhere sells them from as little as £12 and will get you out of any issue. They're a life saver!

Also an impact screwdriver that takes socket extensions/bits is another get you out of the **** life saver! And £9 iirc on the bay!
That Bahco set is decent. I've a couple of friends who use them a lot and they stand up to use. Agreed, Halfords sets are decent too especially now they have 6 point sockets.
 
That Bahco set is decent. I've a couple of friends who use them a lot and they stand up to use. Agreed, Halfords sets are decent too especially now they have 6 point sockets.
Yeah having 6 and 12 points really helps, but I agree some stuff that's cheap is really good, as I say those twist sockets you mention and my impact screwdriver along with cheap circlip pliers have been awesome, even if you break them after the jobs done who cares for that price, it's surprising how good things are these days like angle grinders too even from Aldi/Lidl brands like Parkside.

It's just ideal to get something like a 120 piece Halfords and know it'll last/warranty is amazing and can be taken to any store in the uk and exchanged, forever, even the box it comes in trust me haha!

Then you just build up what you need before you do a job after reading a manual/watching a guide and noting stuff down, then before you know it you don't need help, that's how everyone started.

It annoys me the ignorance of people thinking you can't learn anything yourself without being qualified, we grew up building tree houses and weren't carpenters as kids nor builders, nor bike mechanics yet could learn to fix them/upgrade them...

I forgot that I just woke up and could disassemble/rebuild/upgrade a PC/speak/walk/do anything just magically out of nowhere/have to go on a course... Learning is learning wether you have a sheet of paper or not. Anyone can ask someone for help/look something up/get qualified or self teach with the correct encouragement/information.

Ignorance is bliss I guess.
 
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@Armageus this selection will solve your issues, and most of the time you won't even need a stand or jack, providing you're not taking a wheel off for said job, IF you need to the bigger ones will provide access to put stands underneath be it on the chassis rails/sill mounted reinforced jacking points.
The big metal slatted ones mean your car cannot roll off as well even if on an incline etc, obviously you should still chock behind the wheels facing any incline.

 
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@Raymond Lin is there not a nice owners group you can find on a Volvo/Ford forum or social media page and befriend someone to do it for you? At a time/place that suits you both?

99% Of any enthusiast groups have many people like this local to you or not far who are whiling to help/recommend someone or a place, who knows one of them might even work for Ford/Volvo and be able to get you the OEM parts at trade price, I have met many people like that when I first started out with cars, find someone that's got a unit/lift/welder and you have an angel for life if you sort them out for doing it/time on the ramp etc...

They'll also 99.9% time happily teach you stuff if you're interested, show you how to do 1 side, then you do the next under their safety/supervision. That's the difference between real car people and those that just buy it off the shelf and not expect it to break/pay others, there's a different level of passion/interaction/respect for the car/trade/skill of it, and I've never met anyone who isn't keen to help/share that knowledge/help.

Most will end up becoming genuine friends too and help you for free or some beer money, cars bring people together big time, you just got to get your foot in the door and meet like minded people.

My entire point throughout my posts in this thread has been to try and help and motivate you to get involved learn/or find a better solution if you're not comfortable doing it yourself, not to slate you, I just think it's disgusting what goes on with ripping people off these days.
 
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