Atheists unite

"I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers."

Context is irrelevant. It is a supposed holy book; it should be perfect, it's morality timeless. How can this (one of many examples) be misinterpreted.
 
tbyeah said:
"I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers."

Context is irrelevant. It is a supposed holy book; it should be perfect, it's morality timeless. How can this (one of many examples) be misinterpreted.
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Context is anything but irrelevant. For example the quote you gave from Surah 8 is about an actual battle that took place (Badr), it isn't an order to Muslims, in fact the instruction is given to Angels, not Men.
 
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Sorry, I thought you meant historical context.

What about the 100+ other examples? "Killing unbelievers is a small matter to us"? "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction."?
 
tbyeah said:
Sorry, I thought you meant historical context.

What about the 100+ other examples? "Killing unbelievers is a small matter to us"? "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction."?
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Each one can be used in various ways, I'm not going to go through each and every quote you throw at me and explain each one both theologically and Linguistically, sufficed to say the above example should illustrate the point to you that you cannot take a single passage in isolation and assume a literal meaning from it. Another thing I would warn about is taking all your information from anti-muslim and anti-theist sources, for example one of the quotes you used above "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" is not even in the Qur'an, it is a Hadith (anecdote) attributed to Tabari and as such is not canonical.

The second is again in the context of the historical record of Mohammed and his struggle against those who were trying to kill him and his followers, the Surah it is taken from (Al Isra) is a combination of warning, admonition and instruction..it is interesting to note that the particular Surah tells how Muslims were both persecuted and the persecutors. It is about righteousness and fighting against greed and avarice, the passage you chose is part of a larger section that deals with the message God gave to Mankind with the Flood and that such behaviour will be punished (this is by God, not by Muslims) but first each individual will be given the chance to show that they understand and no burden of another will be placed on them, so effectively it is about the idea of individual actions and the consequences of them, and this applies to those that call themselves Muslim as well as others.. It even goes on to say (verse 22) that associating another Deity with Allah will only reduce the individual to ignominy and helplessness...which shows that the passage overall is speaking metaphorically within the context of the events of the time.

So I hope that this illustrates that we should never simply take a single quote and assume meaning from it, this goes against the very idea of objective, informed and critical thinking.
 
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I was aware the first one was Hadith.

I also fail to see how the same passage also condemning those that believe in another deity to helplessness, makes it a metaphor?
 
This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but if you cant understand what Castiel writes, there's no chance in hell you could ever make sense of the Quran.

One of the things I find quite sad about God. Why send down a book if most of the people on earth are barely literate, let alone able to understand the highly complex literacy of the Quran, and everyone knows Chinese whispers distorts things.

I know many Muslims who have gained their knowledge only from other people and never even read the Quran. Their faces when I quote interesting things extracted directly from the Quran is priceless.
 
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tbyeah said:
I was aware the first one was Hadith.

I also fail to see how the same passage also condemning those that believe in another deity to helplessness, makes it a metaphor?
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Hadith isn't The Qur'an. You said they were in the Qur'an.

It illustrates that the same passage doesn't state to kill unbelievers, if it did then why would it then say an unbeliever would be shamed and lost? And I didn't say it makes it all a metaphor, but that it speaks metaphorically, the entire Surah is not simply a parable, but a combination of many things, including a record and admonishment of both persecutions done to and done by Muslims...

Have you read the Surah, or are you just repeating what you've read elsewhere?
 
Ahh, a good old debate about translations of interpretations of translations of interpretations of interpretations of interpretations of translations of made up stories.

This will end well.
 
asim18 said:
This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but if you cant understand what Castiel writes, there's no chance in hell you could ever make sense of the Quran.

One of the things I find quite sad about God. Why send down a book if most of the people on earth are barely literate, let alone able to understand the highly complex literacy of the Quran, and everyone knows Chinese whispers distorts things.

I know many Muslims who have gained their knowledge only from other people and never even read the Quran. Their faces when I quote interesting things extracted directly from the Quran is priceless.
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God didn't sent a book, he sent a verbal revelation to Mohammed through the ArchAngel Gabriel over the course of 20 odd years. It wasn't collected together and written down (by different people) until after Mohammed died. Hence why there is some question over the variance and relationship of The Qur'an compared to that original revelation amongst scholars.
 
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No, I have not read the entire Surah. I am by no means a scholar on Islamic literature. I intend to.

Also, the two don't contradict (from what you've said). Associating another deity with Allah will reduce them to ignominy and helplessness, and they should be killed.
 
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tbyeah said:
Sorry, I thought you meant historical context.

What about the 100+ other examples? "Killing unbelievers is a small matter to us"? "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction."?
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First, read this.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthre...Muslims-want-to-wage-jihad-on-all-non-Muslims

Now try to understand this.

This period we live in is one where the muslims world is going through a struggle, most of the muslim nations are in poverty/corruption and plagued by crime/terrorism. The average man is lucky if he can make enough money to feed his family. And if someone wrongs him then good chance taking it to the police they will only care if you have the money.

In amidst this there is a war between two ideologies to make things better for the masses, our western liberal democracy and islamic fundamentalism.

Perhaps that might help explain why the Islamic world is seen as being so violent and backwards.

If you gave these people education, jobs, security and a decent government you would see a different islamic world.

We are moulded by our environment and sorroundings so much, it is scary when you think of it sometimes.
 
Saudi Arabia is a developed nation, and yet still it has sexist and discriminatory laws (let alone the leading scholars describing how women driving causes natural disasters).
 
Castiel said:
God didn't sent a book, he sent a verbal revelation to Mohammed through the ArchAngel Gabriel over the course of 20 odd years. It wasn't collected together and written down (by different people) until after Mohammed died. Hence why there is some question over the variance and relationship of The Qur'an compared to that original revelation amongst scholars.
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Yes that's right, but... Being tasked with archiving verbal communication in that day and age, one would automatically have to retort to archiving it in writing. So if all knowing deity is sending down verbal communication in that period with the intention of it being stored, the deity is essentially sending down a book. I mean what format did he expect it to be stored in? CD-ROM? :p

In contrast if the revelations occurred now, it would be on live TV not a book.

This is where my comment stemmed from. If god wanted to send down Abraham and then wait for two major religions to become established before butting in again and creating Islam, God should have waited until he could reach all those Jews and Christians via TV. And not just one guy in his head.
 
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tbyeah said:
Saudi Arabia is a developed nation, and yet still it has sexist and discriminatory laws (let alone the leading scholars describing how women driving causes natural disasters).
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Developed? The rulers are tyrants who imprison journalists for even trying to find out the level of poverty in the Kingdom. They are salafis who have promoted terrorism and intolerance throughout the region and world.

They have a monopoly on oil (will be ending in the next few decades) and influence on muslim countries because it is the birthplace of Islam.

So they have some political and financial clout and in recent times they have seemed to be giving there people slightly more rights but I would not be surprised when one day a group like ISIS beheads one of the Kings of Saudi Arabia. And for many people around the world, muslims and non muslims alike such a moment would be quite welcomed..

Sexist and discriminatory laws, remember in the muslim calendar the year is still 1435. Islam is almost 600 years younger then Christianity.
 
tbyeah said:
No, I have not read the entire Surah. I am by no means a scholar on Islamic literature. I intend to.

Also, the two don't contradict (from what you've said). Associating another deity with Allah will reduce them to ignominy and helplessness, and they should be killed.
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This is getting off topic but I would read it before making such assumptions if I were you. It appears you are simply voicing what you read in anti-theist literature and have made up your mind at the outset and are simply looking for confirmation of your preconceptions. That goes against the precept of objective critical thinking.
 
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asim18 said:
Yes that's right, but... Being tasked with archiving verbal communication in that day and age, one would automatically have to retort to archiving it in writing. So if all knowing deity is sending down verbal communication in that period with the intention of it being stored, the deity is essentially sending down a book. I mean what format did he expect it to be stored in? CD-ROM? :p

In contrast if the revelations occurred now, it would be on live TV not a book.

This is where my comment stemmed from. If god wanted to send down Abraham and then wait for two major religions to become established before butting in again and creating Islam, God should have waited until he could reach all those Jews and Christians via TV. And not just one guy in his head.
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You asked why would God send down a book when most of the population were illiterate.....I pointed out that he didn't. He sent down the revelation verbally for dissemination. Who said the intention was for it to be stored, the revelations intention is to be spread, not stored and that can be done in a whole raft of ways.
 
I'm certainly not going to be funding this guy (I'm skint as it is) but to the atheists who say, "who gives a **** about religion", you are foolish! Whether you believe it or not (I certainly don't), it has a massive impact on our world. It slows advancement, 'you are playing God!", my kid goes to a school where they teach them that Jesus was crucified etc as FACT and that he is the way to heaven. Like wtf? Why send him to that school I hear you cry! Because it's a decent school and the others we had to choose from were not, simple as that. Religion is all around us and whether you believe in it or not it affects everyone, I'm all for atheists 'spreading the word' and trying to educate people. If it ever gets to a point that it doesn't affect science, schools and our laws - basically they keep it to themselves then by all means, "who gives a **** what they believe".
 
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