Man of Honour
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Australia vs India
- Thread starter JAzz
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India have said that if Harb is not cleared then the tour is off
The Indian board have dug themselves into a hole saying that. If he isn't cleared pulling out will cost them big time, if they don't pull out then the local media and fans will have a pop at them. Also India have reported Hogg and if the Aussies take that punishment on the chin India will look silly or what if the Aussies kick up a fuss about it?
Yeah that surprised me as well, some fans there even think he has done some wrong here as well. Kumble actually tried to arrange a meeting with him and the players in question to sort it out but Ponting reported it straight away to the match referee, I don't have a problem with that but the Aussies have stepped over the line plenty of times as well but how come they were so quick to get Harbhajan done for it?
Have they been racist when stepping over the line though. I know they're no angels and I may be wrong but I can't remember any of them being accused of racially abusing another player. For me that would be the difference. There's quite rightly an effort in most sports to kick out racism and for any racism to have 0 tolerance by being reported and punished. Crossing the line sledging can be an issue but racism is a far more serious one and should not be tolerated in the slightest.
As Aussie captain Ponting had no choice when he was told of what happened. Any good captain when told by his team members that they'd be racially abused should report it straight to the referee/umpire.
Any one see that Malcolm Speeds comments today that the ICC won't back down. Is he on another planet or something? One day he very quickly gets rid of his most experienced umpire in a decision that could shape the rest of his remaining career, the next he's trying to say the ICC are strong and won't be swayed by pressure.
Even funnier is a comment from a BCCI vice-president: ""The controversy continues until Harbhajan's name is cleared. We are not applying pressure to the ICC". No pressure? Surely he's having a laugh!
Speaking as an Aussie, I have mixed feelings about this entire debacle.
Let me commence by saying that India was unlucky to receive so many bad umpire decisions (Australia copped some too, but nowhere near as many). However, I don't believe this cost them the game. Australia dominated from the outset, and although the tourists made an impressive comeback at one point, they didn't have the stamina or discipline to follow through. India lost because they were outplayed by a superior team.
With regard to the question of Harbhajan's alleged racial abuse, I think it's important to remember how the incident unfolded on the pitch:
The incident appeared to reach a head shortly after Harbhajan raised his half-century in Friday's last session. He went on to score 63.
Harbhajan began walking down the pitch after facing the final delivery of a Brett Lee over, gesturing to speak with Symonds.
He spoke briefly with Symonds, who was walking to the other end of the wicket to get into his fielding position for the next over, before Harbhajan became involved in discussions with Ponting and vice-captain Adam Gilchrist in mid-pitch.
Batting partner Sachin Tendulkar appeared to have words with Harbhajan at the time.
Benson then called out Harbhajan, but covered his mouth to prevent television cameras from picking up what he said to the spinner, who appeared to deny any wrongdoing.
That's from the ABC.
So... Harbhajan called Symonds over and made a comment. Hayden & Ponting intervened in mid-pitch. Tendulkar also entered the fray, and had words with Harbhajan. Umpire Mark Benson then challenged Harbhajan and spoke with him personally.
If a player calls over an opponent for the express purpose of making a particular comment and is subsequently approached by three different players (including his own teammate) and an umpire, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what's happening.
Ponting later referred the issue to the umpires, as he had been instructed to do following the torrent of racial abuse that Symonds had received in India. The charge was officially laid against Harbhajan by the two umpires, Mark Benson and Steve Bucknor - one of whom personally witnessed the altercation, and had intervened without prompting from the Australian players. Clearly, they felt that Harbhajan had a case to answer.
I am greatly disappointed by the ICC for surrendering to the BCCI's blackmail. India's demand for Bucknor's removal is a disgrace to the sport, as is the removal itself and the decision to let Harbhajan play in Perth. Teams should not be allowed to pick and choose their own umpires.
On the issue of sledging: I personally don't like it, but it's been in the game long before Australia became a superpower in international cricket, and it's here to stay. However, racism is not tolerated under the unwritten rules of sledging, and I don't believe Harbhajan's attack on Symonds can be justified or mitigated by the words "he was provoked", or "the Aussies had it coming". To the people who say "Australia gives it out but can't take it back", I say "that would be true if Australia had been racially abusing the Indians", which they didn't. They may dish out their fair share of "permissible" abuse in the form of sledging, but they are careful to avoid racist comments.
Ponting did himself no favours by excessive appealing throughout the match, and I think the umpires should have acted on it at the time. This would have helped to reassure India's misconceptions of bias, and possibly averted the 5-act opera which followed. It's good to see that Kumble has offered to make peace and Ponting has accepted.
Back home in Australia, the tide of public opinion now seems to be returning in favour of Ponting and his boys, after a massive knee-jerk from the press and the usual bandwagon of armchair commentators. In one sense, I am encouraged by the fact that the Aussie fans reacted so badly against their team, because it proves that they're not blind devotees; they don't support the Baggies unconditionally, but hold them to account when they think they've done wrong. Some other countries are not so objective.
Looking forward to the third match at the WACA in my old home town of Perth, where I trust our lads to seal the Test and send the tourists packing.
Let me commence by saying that India was unlucky to receive so many bad umpire decisions (Australia copped some too, but nowhere near as many). However, I don't believe this cost them the game. Australia dominated from the outset, and although the tourists made an impressive comeback at one point, they didn't have the stamina or discipline to follow through. India lost because they were outplayed by a superior team.
With regard to the question of Harbhajan's alleged racial abuse, I think it's important to remember how the incident unfolded on the pitch:
The incident appeared to reach a head shortly after Harbhajan raised his half-century in Friday's last session. He went on to score 63.
Harbhajan began walking down the pitch after facing the final delivery of a Brett Lee over, gesturing to speak with Symonds.
He spoke briefly with Symonds, who was walking to the other end of the wicket to get into his fielding position for the next over, before Harbhajan became involved in discussions with Ponting and vice-captain Adam Gilchrist in mid-pitch.
Batting partner Sachin Tendulkar appeared to have words with Harbhajan at the time.
Benson then called out Harbhajan, but covered his mouth to prevent television cameras from picking up what he said to the spinner, who appeared to deny any wrongdoing.
That's from the ABC.
So... Harbhajan called Symonds over and made a comment. Hayden & Ponting intervened in mid-pitch. Tendulkar also entered the fray, and had words with Harbhajan. Umpire Mark Benson then challenged Harbhajan and spoke with him personally.
If a player calls over an opponent for the express purpose of making a particular comment and is subsequently approached by three different players (including his own teammate) and an umpire, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what's happening.
Ponting later referred the issue to the umpires, as he had been instructed to do following the torrent of racial abuse that Symonds had received in India. The charge was officially laid against Harbhajan by the two umpires, Mark Benson and Steve Bucknor - one of whom personally witnessed the altercation, and had intervened without prompting from the Australian players. Clearly, they felt that Harbhajan had a case to answer.
I am greatly disappointed by the ICC for surrendering to the BCCI's blackmail. India's demand for Bucknor's removal is a disgrace to the sport, as is the removal itself and the decision to let Harbhajan play in Perth. Teams should not be allowed to pick and choose their own umpires.
On the issue of sledging: I personally don't like it, but it's been in the game long before Australia became a superpower in international cricket, and it's here to stay. However, racism is not tolerated under the unwritten rules of sledging, and I don't believe Harbhajan's attack on Symonds can be justified or mitigated by the words "he was provoked", or "the Aussies had it coming". To the people who say "Australia gives it out but can't take it back", I say "that would be true if Australia had been racially abusing the Indians", which they didn't. They may dish out their fair share of "permissible" abuse in the form of sledging, but they are careful to avoid racist comments.
Ponting did himself no favours by excessive appealing throughout the match, and I think the umpires should have acted on it at the time. This would have helped to reassure India's misconceptions of bias, and possibly averted the 5-act opera which followed. It's good to see that Kumble has offered to make peace and Ponting has accepted.
Back home in Australia, the tide of public opinion now seems to be returning in favour of Ponting and his boys, after a massive knee-jerk from the press and the usual bandwagon of armchair commentators. In one sense, I am encouraged by the fact that the Aussie fans reacted so badly against their team, because it proves that they're not blind devotees; they don't support the Baggies unconditionally, but hold them to account when they think they've done wrong. Some other countries are not so objective.
Looking forward to the third match at the WACA in my old home town of Perth, where I trust our lads to seal the Test and send the tourists packing.
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I think a few Sri Lankan players of yesteryear wouldn't agree that they haven't stepped over the line. There are a few South African players who have had their wives and family insulted pretty damn badly by a few Aussies as well so
Why is a racist taunt worse than someone swearing at another player? I can call a black person a monkey or I could rip him, his wife and family with every swear word under the sun for 5 minutes and you are telling me calling him a monkey is worse? As I'm sure you know I'm a Sikh myself and I've had plenty of racial stuff thrown at me so I'm in a good position to know which I'd find more offensive.
The BCCI's approach to this has been a disgrace though, I don't think they have acted the right way but they have every right to defend their player.
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Good post, but I disagree that the BCC "have every right to defend their player". Indian players are not the BCCI's players; they are the team's players and the nation's players. Official cricket organisations should aim to be as objective as possible. The moment a player is defended by the ICC, BCCI or any similar body on the grounds that "he's our player", is the day all objectivity goes out the window.
I was under the impression that neither umpire heard any racist comment from Harbhajan - i.e. just because Ponting said so, it must be true.
Ponting is a right little scumbag and I hate his guts - who does he think he is giving a batsman out? - the cheating, disrespectful little ****
Although only Ponting and Symonds are *****. Symonds made me sick with his gloating about surviving a caught behind appeal. But then you also need to remember that they have the most consistent walker in Adam Gilchrist - so to criticise the whole Aussie team for being unsportsmanlike is unfair.
But I also think Harbhajan probably did say something racist - and what makes it worse (for me) is that he's now lying about it.
could be considered offensive to some, so edited
Soldato
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/mihirbose/2008/01/what_was_and_wasnt_said_in_syd.html
Quite an interesting read. Singh is said to have said something rude about Symond's mother that sounded like he was saying the word monkey. Also Tendulkar can't say that Singh didn't say Monkey as he was only called over when Singh gestured for help so he was at the other end of the crease when the word was supposedly uttered.
Quite an interesting read. Singh is said to have said something rude about Symond's mother that sounded like he was saying the word monkey. Also Tendulkar can't say that Singh didn't say Monkey as he was only called over when Singh gestured for help so he was at the other end of the crease when the word was supposedly uttered.
I haven't seen any reports which state that the umpires didn't hear it. But even if they didn't, it's clear that they saw something on the field that didn't look right.
Notice that Benson challenged Harbhajan on the spot, just moments after he'd made his comment. This was without prompting from the Aussies. The umpires concluded that something dodgy had occurred, and acted immediately. Ponting's complaint wasn't submitted until after the match, so he can't be accused of trying to bully the umpire into penalising Harbhajan.
It's a mixed bag. I have a lot of respect for Ponting, but he appeals far too often. Warnie was a shocker for that; perhaps this is where Ponting picked it up. He really needs to tone it down tbh.
As for cheating... I don't believe Ponting's a cheat; he simply plays by the letter of the law, which states that the umpire's decision is final. And if an umpire gives "not out" when you think you're actually out, you're entitled to stay in. Crazy but true.
The real cheats are Pakistan. From chucking to ball tampering, they do it all.
Agreed. And Harbhajan has prior form for this sort of thing.
He reminds me of Papa Lazarou from League of Gentlemen!
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This is an excellent point.
If Tendulkar didn't hear it, he can't categorically deny that it was said. Yet that is precisely what he has been doing in the media.
Meanwhile, Ponting has been lambasted for claiming that it was said, despite not hearing it personally.
Double standards, anyone?
Support from an unlikely source:
Indian batsman Sourav Ganguly says he disagrees with former Australian players who say the current team was disrespectful to the spirit of the game during the second Test in Sydney.
A number of former Australian players and sporting figures have criticised the way in which the world champions played the game, also including calls for Ricky Ponting to be sacked.
But the former Indian captain has told ESPN the Australians' behaviour was brought out by a desperation to win, and he would have acted in the same way.
"Whatever has happened on the field it didn't look pretty good from outside," he said.
"But I also quietly admired how desperate they were to win."
ABC.
Indian batsman Sourav Ganguly says he disagrees with former Australian players who say the current team was disrespectful to the spirit of the game during the second Test in Sydney.
A number of former Australian players and sporting figures have criticised the way in which the world champions played the game, also including calls for Ricky Ponting to be sacked.
But the former Indian captain has told ESPN the Australians' behaviour was brought out by a desperation to win, and he would have acted in the same way.
"Whatever has happened on the field it didn't look pretty good from outside," he said.
"But I also quietly admired how desperate they were to win."
ABC.
From this article http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/7174122.stm
"Match referee Mike Procter said he was satisfied Harbhajan had used the word - though neither of the two umpires heard the remarks - and that "he meant it to offend on the basis of Symonds' race or ethnic origin"."
So somehow the Match Referee was certain "Monkey" had been said, but neither field umpire heard anything? That probably means that Ponting's accusation was used to charge Harbhajan, without supporting evidence - bit harsh in my opinion.
So Australian player says "he said that" and Indian player said "no, I didn't" and the Match Referee sides with the Australian? How is that fair? If there's some other source of evidence (i.e. lip reading, admission from Harbhajan" it needs to be made public because this sucks!
That's right - most of the cheating episodes in International Cricket have involved a Pakistani Cricketer and/or an Indian Bookmaker!
It looks like both teams have put his incident behind them and got on with the cricket which is only a good thing.
India were bowled out for 330 which seemed a bit low at the time with Dravid throwing his wicket away after a great 93 (seems to have got his form back) and Tendulkar was given out to a questionable lbw (was out earlier though from what ive heard though). They would have liked to have been over 400 but most of the others didn't perform but they have mowed the Aussies over for 212! With only Gilchrist and Symonds getting some kind of respectable scores out but now the Indians lead by 161 runs with 9 wickets in tact. India will be looking to set them a 400+ score and that will be a real test for the Aussies because I don't think anyone has chased over 350 on this pitch. But I expect a strong performance to restrict the Indians now.
India were bowled out for 330 which seemed a bit low at the time with Dravid throwing his wicket away after a great 93 (seems to have got his form back) and Tendulkar was given out to a questionable lbw (was out earlier though from what ive heard though). They would have liked to have been over 400 but most of the others didn't perform but they have mowed the Aussies over for 212! With only Gilchrist and Symonds getting some kind of respectable scores out but now the Indians lead by 161 runs with 9 wickets in tact. India will be looking to set them a 400+ score and that will be a real test for the Aussies because I don't think anyone has chased over 350 on this pitch. But I expect a strong performance to restrict the Indians now.
India have set the Aussies 414 to win and they are currently 57/2. I think India might be a bit disappointed they couldn't rack up another 100 or so because there is still a lot of time left in this game.
India have a good chance to win so where are all the England fans who should be here showing their full support
India have a good chance to win so where are all the England fans who should be here showing their full support
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Soldato
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We are keeping quiet not wanting to knacker the Indian's chances of ruining the Aussie's run for a record 17 consecutive Test victories. 
Soldato
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Why are you writing the score in reverse?Well, they're making good progress atm. Home side is down to 2 for 65, and facing some hard yakka tomorrow.
Fingers crossed!
That's the Aussie way! 65 for 2 OR 65-2 is the preferred (and correct) way round here thanks.
Why are you writing the score in reverse?
That's the Aussie way! 65 for 2 OR 65-2 is the preferred (and correct) way round here thanks.
LOL... I may live in the UK, but I'll always be an Aussie.
Soldato
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Infiltrator! 