Australian "The Voice" referendum gets a solid no vote to allow further indigenous representations.

Not sure I really understand this. If this body wasn't to have any real power and was advisory why would you need a referendum, why not just have some nominated individuals who advise the sitting government like non executives on a companies board meeting?
 
I'm not an expert, but wouldn't the Gypsy, Roma and Irish Traveller group count as the same or similar? I appreciate it not exactly the same, but there are several similarities.


I thought the Aussies stole the land from the aborigines. Gypsies are usually on the other side of that equation...
 
Not sure I really understand this. If this body wasn't to have any real power and was advisory why would you need a referendum, why not just have some nominated individuals who advise the sitting government like non executives on a companies board meeting?
Because it was going to be a change to the constitution. In essence I don't think much would have changed, certainly not for me but it was poorly worded and not wholly clear what it would look like, mostly because nobody really knows I suppose. Once the two major political leaders nailed their colours to the mast it became what they hoped it wouldn't. It had quite a Brexity feel to me - are you voting yes or are you a racist trotted out?

I expected Yes to win it by quite a margin. The fallout in the papers today seems mostly about race but I think it is far deeper than that. I think it's fear driven. The more interesting parts in the press today are the analysis of the voters. Outside of the ACT (which literally doesn't count), all states voted No. The yes vote won easily in the affluent suburbs of all of the major cities and pretty much nowhere else. My area was 66% yes and the very centre of Melbourne was 77% - one of the highest in the country.
Whether the results indicate that those that can adapt easiest to change (the educated higher earners that speak english as a first language) weren't afraid of it or if that is a media spin to make the yes voters feel better about themselves and elevate them above the plebs I don't know. We didn't win but we are smarter than those who voted no.

 
If anyone is interested in a historical context to the current divide


When it was official policy to `breed out the black`
 
Whether the results indicate that those that can adapt easiest to change (the educated higher earners that speak english as a first language) weren't afraid of it or if that is a media spin to make the yes voters feel better about themselves and elevate them above the plebs I don't know. We didn't win but we are smarter than those who voted No.

"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them"

Don't confuse an education (often in a quite narrow field of study) with an ability to make sound decisions on wider social issues.

'The Voice' was a garbage proposition deservedly rejected.

It's almost impossible to get straight answers from it's proponents.

Why do you need to change the constituion for an 'advisory body'?

What's stopping aboriginal people from organising themselves and creating a body to represent them that can provide suggestions to the goverment like numerous other groups can and have done?

Who counts as an aboriginal?

What will the Voice achieve that existing goverment sponsored organisation cannot?

The NIAA

The National Indigenous Australians Agency (NIAA) was established in July 2019 by an executive order made by the Coalition government. It is answerable to the Minister for Indigenous Australians, who was then Ken Wyatt, himself an Aborigine. Linda Burney (also Aboriginal) became the minister in June 2022. NIAA’s stated task is to inform the minister of “policies and services required to address the unique needs of Aborigines at a community level”. Its publicly stated “vision” is “to ensure that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are heard, recognised and empowered. We recognise that each First Nations community is unique. We work in partnership with community to make sure policies, programs and services meet their unique needs.” It had a budget of $3.8 billion in 2022, which increased in 2023 to $4.5 billion (an increase of 20 per cent).

How many people will sit on the Voice?

How will they be appointed or how will they will be elected?

How can members be removed?

Where will it he based?

What will be it's an annual budget, and whoose paying?

How much will members of the Voice will be paid?

If members of the Voice are divided on a particular issue how would this be resolved and who should the govermenr listen to?

If the Voice is to advise on policies impacting Indigenous Austrakians what laws or policies doesn’t impact them?

Would any areas be off-limits to the Voice? Defence treaties, foreign affairs etc?

Are the government expected to consult the Voice on all major decisions? Is the Treasurer is expected to brief the Voice on what’s included in an upcoming budget?

What constitutes proper notice for the Voice to consider each issue that comes before it? What's sufficient information to provide the Voice so it can make informed representation? Any national security implications?

Would the Voice will be expected to respond to each proposal in a set period of time?

Would the Voice would have to be heard before a decision is made?

What happens if the 'advice' of the Voice is ignored and whether this can lead to legal challenges.

What are the full legal implications of the Voice?

Will the Voice have targets when it comes to closing attainment gaps? What happens if these get worse under its watch?
 
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If anyone is interested in a historical context to the current divide


When it was official policy to `breed out the black`

It’s shocking how recently the aboriginal people were treated not just as second class citizens but effectively as sub-human.
 
"Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them"

Don't confuse an education (often in a quite narrow field of study) with an ability to make sound decisions on wider social issues.

'The Voice' was a garbage proposition deservedly rejected.

It's almost impossible to get straight answers from it's proponents.

Why do you need to change the constituion for an 'advisory body'?

What's stopping aboriginal people from organising themselves and creating a body to represent them that can provide suggestions to the goverment like numerous other groups can and have done?

Who counts as an aboriginal?

What will the Voice achieve that existing goverment sponsored organisation cannot?



How many people will sit on the Voice?

How will they be appointed or how will they will be elected?

How can members be removed?

Where will it he based?

What will be it's an annual budget, and whoose paying?

How much will members of the Voice will be paid?

If members of the Voice are divided on a particular issue how would this be resolved and who should the govermenr listen to?

If the Voice is to advise on policies impacting Indigenous Austrakians what laws or policies doesn’t impact them?

Would any areas be off-limits to the Voice? Defence treaties, foreign affairs etc?

Are the government expected to consult the Voice on all major decisions? Is the Treasurer is expected to brief the Voice on what’s included in an upcoming budget?

What constitutes proper notice for the Voice to consider each issue that comes before it? What's sufficient information to provide the Voice so it can make informed representation? Any national security implications?

Would the Voice will be expected to respond to each proposal in a set period of time?

Would the Voice would have to be heard before a decision is made?

What happens if the 'advice' of the Voice is ignored and whether this can lead to legal challenges.

What are the full legal implications of the Voice?

Will the Voice have targets when it comes to closing attainment gaps? What happens if these get worse under its watch?
That’s why I voted no.
 
Ah yes, the old "graduates voted remain" line that insinuated that anyone that voted the other way is a stupid, uneducated bigot. Same vibes.
If a statistic says more educated people did something and less educated people did something else, then it's how it is.
 
If a statistic says more educated people did something and less educated people did something else, then it's how it is.

Correct.

Then using the correlation to insinuate a further unproven 'fact' such as the implied bigotry isn't really something that added any value to post vote did it other than a lash out?

It doesn't here either. It's another failure again of a side to gracefully accepted a democratic decision.
All too common a theme in democracies nowadays, and it's getting to be quite the pattern.
 
If a statistic says more educated people did something and less educated people did something else, then it's how it is.

And if you think that shows that group A neccesarilly did something *because* of their education level then your are demonstrating that the education you received wasn't all that great in the first place.

Propositions like the 'Voice' are split strongly along ideological lines with many voting due to the consensus of their 'in' group with little consideration of the actual facts and the merits and downsides of what was bring proposed.

And yes this would apply to both 'yes' and 'no'. I'm sure a lot of no voters didn't take much time to evaluate the proposition and just voted 'no'.

But when you examine the facts ' the voice' was a garbage proposal.

Very little explanation was given about what would entail and how it would be implemented. And an almost total lack of explanation as to why it was needed in the first place... unless the intention was to create an actual systemically racist constitution where some citizens would very much be 'more equal' than others.

With other 'black power' political movements like BLM being throughly exposed for the destructive grifters that people like me always knew they were and with 'The Voice' being devised and promoted by multiple open communist it was always going to be sensible to write "no" on thr ballot.

Lots of the usual city dwelling lanyard wearing, dyed hair types just voted for it because they were hillariously told that embedding racial preferences into a constituion was the 'anti racist' thing to do.
 
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And if you think that shows that group A neccesarilly did something *because* of their education level then your are demonstrating that the education you received wasn't all that great in the first place.

Propositions like the 'Voice' are split strongly along ideological lines with many voting due to the consensus of their 'in' group with little consideration of the actual facts and the merits and downsides of what was bring proposed.

And yes this would apply to both 'yes' and 'no'. I'm sure a lot of no voters didn't take much time to evaluate the proposition and just voted 'no'.

But when you examine the facts ' the voice' was a garbage proposal.

Very little explanation was given about what would entail and how it would be implemented. And an almost total lack of explanation as to why it was needed in the first place... unless the intention was to create an actual systemically racist constitution where some citizens would very much be 'more equal' than others.

With other 'black power' political movements like BLM being throughly exposed for the destructive grifters that people like me always knew they were and with 'The Voice' being devised and promoted by multiple open communist it was always going to be sensible to write "no" on thr ballot.

Lots of the usual city dwelling lanyard wearing, dyed hair types just voted for it because they were hillariously told that embedding racial preferences into a constituion was the 'anti racist' thing to do.
I'm not saying they did it because of their education level it is merely a statement of people's characteristics in a particular vote, it's not irrelevant information or it'd have no worth to governments/corporations. Calling people stupid because they voted a certain way is an opinion.
 
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General point I'm making is that democracy functions when the the losing side accepts the results.

We've seen in UK (Brexit), USA (illegitimate President/election fraud) and now potentially Australia that there is a new trend to rage when your 'tribe' don't get a result they believe was the 'good' choice, re-running the debate with a new lens on who voted against them and where those types are undesirable or 'lesser' than your side. This type of sentiment is growing, needs to be observed and understood.
 
A democracy subsists on the verge at all times and the only reason anyone thinks it's stable is because the economic system that sits alongside it has been largely unchanged... until recently when tech giants killed the free market.

You can accept an result but it doesn't mean people should just accept it forever or stop fighting their corner.
 
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Very little explanation was given about what would entail and how it would be implemented. And an almost total lack of explanation as to why it was needed in the first place... unless the intention was to create an actual systemically racist constitution where some citizens would very much be 'more equal' than others.

Is the UK constitution racist because it treats England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland differently?

Like many countries with minority indigenous populations, Australia has many nations within its borders.
 
Is the UK constitution racist because it treats England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland differently?

Like many countries with minority indigenous populations, Australia has many nations within its borders.

The English lacking their own representation has been pointed out as a bone of contention for some before but when offered their own regional assemblies any region polled has resoundingly said "no".

The Scottish, NI and Welsh assemblies can only vote on non reserved local matters that are fairly well defined and differing funding to the regions isn't spent along ethnic lines.

Neither Scots, Welsh, English nor Northern Irish people have special provisions for them written into UK law like the 'Voice' proposed for Australia.

No sensible comparison to be made here. The UK's constitutional arrangements are if anything more akin to the existing federal arrangement in Oz than they would be similar to the 'Voice' (yes I know the UK isn't a federal state).

You see there is a difference between differing provisions for Scotland, England and Wales then there would be for differing provisions within the UK for 'ethnic' Scots, English and Welsh people.
 
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Neither Scots, Welsh, English nor Northern Irish people have special provisions for them written into UK law like the 'Voice' proposed for Australia.

I feel we’re getting way off topic here but that’s simply not true. We have the Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland Acts of 1998 that all write different provisions into the UK constitution for the devolved nations. Different laws, different powers, different rights. This is particularly true in Northern Ireland, where being born or naturalised in Northern Ireland grants a right to Irish citizenship.

I don’t think that giving aboriginal nations a voice is in any way racist, since clearly being part of one of those nations is about more than just skin colour or blood.
 
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I'm curious, when did the word "racist" become a thing, linguistically speaking? It's thrown around constantly these days, but I suspect it's a relatively very recent addition to English adjectives? Linguists, what's the answer please?
 
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