Bahrain Grand Prix 2010, Sakhir - Race 1/19

[Jacob (:]

Fisi was miles off the pace and it had nothing to do with pressing the KERS button! The difference between pressing the KERS button and NOT pressing the button at ALL was about 1/2 a second. The difference between pressing the button at the right/wrong time is probably no more than 1s over the whole race.

How can ye compare the brake/throttle to an on/off button? That's like saying that pressing X on the PS3 is the same as Hamilton controlling 850BHP with his right foot.

I think your missing the point. With kers using it at the right/wrong time isnt about the time saved its a lot more to do with postion gained or lost.

Someone using it to the full potential can pull off brilliant gutsy overtakes. At the same time they need it to defend due to the increased weight/difficulty balancing the car. If it was all used too early in the lap and someone makes a move and you lose a place, or you choose not to use it and lose a place then you lose a hell of a lot more than 1s over the race.

 

[saddler]

- Ban diffusers
- Reduce spoilers/fins
- Double the width of the tyres instead of making them smaller
- Increase engine power (so that the limiting factor is drivers guts)
- Super sticky tires instead of todays hard crap, 5-stopping should be possible

I'd add bringing back ground effect as well. This with big rear tyres should mean drivers can follow as closely as they like. Car chassis saftey and track design are greatly improved since the early 80s so I dont think saftey would be an issue.

 

[dannyjo22]

The KERS button is operated by a human. Not a computer. It takes skill to press it at exactly the right time, during the heat of battle. .

Er I know that, my point was they would do computer analasis to know exactly how and when to press the kers to get the best from a laptime.

It really doesn't involve that much skill.

 

[Duke]

- Ban diffusers
- Reduce spoilers/fins

I believe diffusers are going next season already. They should have addressed it earlier before any real development started on the 2010 cars, so it could have been brought in earlier.

Fins and things have been banned but they do get around it so maybe the wording needs changing.

I think making the rear wings narrower further would help.

 

[sunama]

Er I know that, my point was they would do computer analasis to know exactly how and when to press the kers to get the best from a laptime.

It really doesn't involve that much skill.

They can do all the analysis they want. And I'm sure McLaren/Hamilton tested this last year in the simulator. At the end of the day, it comes down to the driver, being able to press the button, at the right time, for the right duration, in the heat of battle, when he has a host of other things to worry about, including another car right behind. 1 mistake with the KERS button and the car behind overtakes.

KERS requires a lot of skill, just as controlling the steering wheel, the throttle, the brake pedal, the brake bias and the angle of the front wing.

 

[Flibster]

I believe diffusers are going next season already. They should have addressed it earlier before any real development started on the 2010 cars, so it could have been brought in earlier.

Double deck diffusers have been banned - diffusers will remain though.

 

[sunama]

This with big rear tyres should mean drivers can follow as closely as they like.

Hear hear.

Increase mechanical grip and reduce aerodynamic downforce. It seems so simple, yet the OWG can't seem to work it out. I guess its a lot more complicated than we seem to think.

IMO, just as I stated last year, removing re-fuelling is going to make all races a procession. They want to artificially introduce a mandatory 2nd pitstop - which would bring them back the pit stop strategy used when refuelling was allowed.

The person who came up with the decision to have narrower front tyres and reduce mechanical grip should stoned to death.

 

[PinkFloyd]

The person who came up with the decision to have narrower front tyres and reduce mechanical grip should stoned to death.

The reasoning was to sort out the balance wasn't it? Stupid imo. I liked tail happy F1 cars!
If it really had to be done they should have made the rear tyres wider!

 

[sunama]

Or they could've reduced the size of the front wing.

Reducing mechanical grip is just asking for trouble.

 

[dannyjo22]

IMO, just as I stated last year, removing re-fuelling is going to make all races a procession. They want to artificially introduce a mandatory 2nd pitstop - which would bring them back the pit stop strategy used when refuelling was allowed..[/B]

Why are people making out they were not a procession before? I've lost count of the amount of races prior to this year that the car into the first corner won.

There should be no mandatory stop, the compounds just need to be softer, it's really that simple, rather than forcing someone to stop. If someone can nurse a car with softer compounds 30 laps good on them.

During the last period of no refuelling the races where hardly a problem and OMG people overtook. People are too fast to blame refuelling. Its hardly like these guys were falling over themselves to overtake each other prior to this year. They waited for stops and sat 1 second behind the car infront for 30 laps.

I want to see cars pass on the racetrack not in the pitlane. If these cars can't do that with full fuel then destroy the aero.

Forcing cars to stop and forcing them to run on a tyre that doesn't suit the car for a period of the race is BS. What next forcing them to race half distance with an eyepatch on? Forcing them to race for half distance with the rear wing removed?

Again, last years races were dull as you like for all except about 4 races. This wont continue pressure will be put on bridgestone to soften the compounds.

 

[saddler]

For me it comes down to 2 ratios:

Mechanical grip : Aerodynamic grip

It doesnt matter how big for how hard the tyres are as long as the majority of grip comes from them. In the 60s tyres were very narrow and had to last for several races but there was almost no aero grip so we had good racing.

Power : grip

Again it doent matter how powerful the engines are (though they would all be v12s revving at 20000rpm+ if I had my way) as long as there is more power than grip. F1 cars SHOULD be dangerous to drive around corners such as Eau rouge or 130R. Corners like this should be there to sort men from boys and that aint the case at the moment.

 

[Skeeter]

Its a simple lack of variables.

Fuel weights provided variations in cars speed. Now we have all the teams with the same fuel, the same tyres, all stopping at the same time, unable to pass each other.

We all knew this would happen.

 

[Owenb]

I think your missing the point. With kers using it at the right/wrong time isnt about the time saved its a lot more to do with postion gained or lost.

Someone using it to the full potential can pull off brilliant gutsy overtakes. At the same time they need it to defend due to the increased weight/difficulty balancing the car. If it was all used too early in the lap and someone makes a move and you lose a place, or you choose not to use it and lose a place then you lose a hell of a lot more than 1s over the race.

There is no extra weight/mass. KERS was rarely used just once per lap it usually was used 2-3 times per lap- there rarely is more that one place that is a real overtaking opportunity let alone 3.
KERS didn't really offer any benefit to the show. Yes there was times when KERS cars passed out non KERS cars but there was also times when non KERS cars got stuck behind KERS and couldn't pass due to KERS- in the end they probably balanced each other out.

 

[sunama]

Why are people making out they were not a procession before? I've lost count of the amount of races prior to this year that the car into the first corner won.

There were indeed processions in previous years, however, what we saw in the last race, was virtually no overtaking during the entire race. Previously, even though the leaders may not have overtaken very often, we would at least some positional changes in midfield. What we saw in yesterday's race was virtually no overtaking. We saw drivers being told to conserve tyres and not risk banzai laps or risky overtaking, in order to conserve tyres. This was not common in previous years.

There should be no mandatory stop, the compounds just need to be softer, it's really that simple, rather than forcing someone to stop. If someone can nurse a car with softer compounds 30 laps good on them.

I actually think the opposite is true. If you make the compounds softer, most drivers would probably be told to conserve their tyres and not risk any super fast laps, at the risk of damaging their tyres. If the compounds are harder, the drivers will be allowed to thrash them and drive on the limit without having to worry about tyres.

During the last period of no refuelling the races where hardly a problem and OMG people overtook.

This is true, but in those days, the dependence on aerodynamic downforce was not so great. This meant cars could follow other cars a lot more closely and pounce on any mistakes made by the car in front. In 2010, with heavy fuel tanks and soft tyres, most drivers (judging from yesterday's race), were being told to stay away from the car in front and not risk their tyres by following closely behind the car in front.

What we need is:
1. more mechanical grip (wider tyres) and
2. less aero grip (smaller wings, so cars behind can follow the car in front, closely),
3. narrower cars (to assist overtaking and make it difficult for the car in front to block the overtake),
4. fuel stops (to add variation in pit stop strategies and to keep the audience guessing on who will actually win the race and
5. KERS (to assist cars to overtake/defend).

Anything else which adds variation will also have the effect of making the race result less predictable. An extreme solution would be to spray the track with water at a random time, once during every dry race, for a period of 10 minutes.

 

[sunama]

Again it doent matter how powerful the engines are (though they would all be v12s revving at 20000rpm+ if I had my way) as long as there is more power than grip. F1 cars SHOULD be dangerous to drive around corners such as Eau rouge or 130R. Corners like this should be there to sort men from boys and that aint the case at the moment.

So true.

Although if that ever happened, I would expect Hamilton to walk away with title after title as he is unquestionably the most daring (eye-balls-out) driver currently in F1. On the negative side, he would probably end up injuring himself at some point.

 

[Ezee84]

If they want to promote overtaking, they need to reduce the aerodynamic grip massively.

Also they should look at increasing braking distances so that there is more scope for outbraking each other. A return to steel discs for example (might be a bit extreme), increasing the braking distances considerably. This would challenge the drivers to be last of the late brakers again.

Also manual gearboxes wouldn't go a miss, let the drivers do some work. Missing gear changes is all part of motorsport but with these seamless changes, the driver only has to press a button - where is the skill in that? Tone back some of the technology & put the emphasis on the drivers again.

With regards to the narrower front tyres, it wasnt the FIA's decision but the designers of the actual cars. They were complaining about the balance being thrown out when the front tyres were wider last year.

Don't see how wider tyres will help matters. It just means there will be endless grip for the cars. The cars should have narrower tyres all round coupled WITH less aerodynamic grip. More sliding around that way & then we will see proper overtaking.

 

[sunama]

Yes there was times when KERS cars passed out non KERS cars but there was also times when non KERS cars got stuck behind KERS and couldn't pass due to KERS- in the end they probably balanced each other out.

In other words, at worst KERS, never made F1 boring and at best KERS made F1 exciting.

Hence, KERS should be brought back.

 

[Ezee84]

In other words, at worst KERS, never made F1 boring and at best KERS made F1 exciting.

Hence, KERS should be brought back.

Maybe they should think about bringing it if overtaking isn't working the way things are but let it recharge over say 5 laps rather than 1. This way if they are using it to defend their position they will have to use skill as well as the the stragety of when to deploy it.

It will also limit the number of times it can be used during the race so teams won't be focussed solely on using it

 

[sunama]

With regards to the narrower front tyres, it wasnt the FIA's decision but the designers of the actual cars. They were complaining about the balance being thrown out when the front tyres were wider last year.

Well that doesnt surprise me at all.

The designers want to create a car which is as fast and balanced as possible. By creating an unbalanced car, the driver is working harder and is more liable to make a mistake, which adds to the spectacle.

Don't see how wider tyres will help matters. It just means there will be endless grip for the cars. The cars should have narrower tyres all round coupled WITH less aerodynamic grip. More sliding around that way & then we will see proper overtaking.

Wider tyres: increase mechanical grip, allowing a car behind to follow the car in front, closer.

Narrower wings: reduce aerodynamic downforce, once again, allowing the car behind to follow the car in front, closely.

The 2 must happen together. If only one happens, the designers will develop the car to such a point that the reduction in downforce will be negligable and you will be back to the situation where most of the grip is aero and not mechanical.

 

[dannyjo22]

There were indeed processions in previous years, however, what we saw in the last race, was virtually no overtaking during the entire race. Previously, even though the leaders may not have overtaken very often, we would at least some positional changes in midfield. What we saw in yesterday's race was virtually no overtaking. We saw drivers being told to conserve tyres and not risk banzai laps or risky overtaking, in order to conserve tyres. This was not common in previous years.



I actually think the opposite is true. If you make the compounds softer, most drivers would probably be told to conserve their tyres and not risk any super fast laps, at the risk of damaging their tyres. If the compounds are harder, the drivers will be allowed to thrash them and drive on the limit without having to worry about tyres..

The reason you saw no-one pushing is because the teams didin't know how long the tyres would last. Why would anyone got balls out in the first race?

The softer compounds would bring the extra stops and if you didn't force them to use a compound they didn't want you could create different strategies by having teams use different compounds to each other and different times.

In other words, at worst KERS, never made F1 boring and at best KERS made F1 exciting.

Hence, KERS should be brought back.

How many times did you see a Kers car overtake another kers car last year?

While we are at it with manufactured overtaking and racing how about only 4 cars are allowed this boost button to be drawn from a hat before each race after qualifying. Thats should manufacture some overtakes.