Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

Glaucus · 24 Oct 2016 at 21:47

great outcome, if those are your beliefs. then don't have a job where you feel you need to discriminate.
Same reasons churches shouldn't have a right to choose if they provide gay marriage. either provide marriage services or don't.
no ones forcing you to go against your beliefs.

batsy · 24 Oct 2016 at 21:53

The summary is a long read however the Consideration part is interesting.

The bare facts of this case might not suggest that it is a matter of any great moment. The respondent ordered a cake with the message “Support Gay Marriage” from the appellants. Some days later they cancelled the order and refunded the cost. The respondent thereafter obtained a suitable replacement cake from another supplier. Those bare facts engage, however, the crucial issue of the manner in which any conflicts between the LGBT community and the faith community in the commercial space should be resolved within this jurisdiction.

Northern Ireland has a large and strong faith community many of whom are people who have played an active part in commerce and taken on leadership roles within the commercial world. It is plainly of importance to this jurisdiction that such people should continue to contribute to the well-being of the Northern Ireland economy and that there should be no chill factor to their participation.

The LGBT community has endured a history of considerable discrimination in this jurisdiction. Homosexual acts in private between consenting males were criminalised until 1985. Those who were gay were reluctant to expose their sexuality and some were subjected to blackmail and other intimidation. The potential for conflict between the rights of the LGBT community and the religious community has unfortunately long been a feature of public debate in Northern Ireland and the strongest opposition to the decriminalisation of homosexual acts between consenting males came from the religious community. It is obviously of importance that the LGBT community should feel able to participate in the commercial life of this community freely and transparently. All of this sets the context for this appeal.

Destination · 24 Oct 2016 at 21:53

Is it true or not that Asher's bakery used to open on Sundays, until this case came along when they started not opening their bakery on Sunday, or is this just fabrication?

They accepted the order, then phoned the client to decline the order, stupid to then state why, rather than just say you are unable to fulfil it.

koolpc · 24 Oct 2016 at 21:57

Glaucus said:
great outcome, if those are your beliefs. then don't have a job where you feel you need to discriminate.
Same reasons churches shouldn't have a right to choose if they provide gay marriage. either provide marriage services or don't.
no ones forcing you to go against your beliefs.

Rubbish.

Churches, they should be for marriages for man and woman. This has always been that way. Marriage is sacred and only between a man and a woman. If a gay person wants a marriage then go to a registrar.

D.P. · 24 Oct 2016 at 21:59

MooMoo444 said:
I don't care if they are gay, straight, Chinese or Jedi, I think it's laughable how you can't choose who to serve in your own business.

You can choose, you just can't discriminate.

D.P. · 24 Oct 2016 at 22:01

Woden said:
It's quite sad to see the number of people that are supposedly ok with gay people ... So long as it's in private.

Straight couples don't have to worry about who will accept the order or not.

Should they have gone to a Christian baker, probably not. But the fact that this is news shows just how far we have to go.

Yep, society has a long way to go.

FoxEye · 24 Oct 2016 at 22:05

atpbx said:
You can choose who you serve.

The mistake made in this case as I said before is giving a reason for refusing to do something.

They should have just flat out refused service and given no reason, which is well within their rights and left it at that.

I'm not certain that's true... if they kept refusing to make the cake and gave no reason, could he not have brought the case anyway?

Because if what you say is true, that makes a mockery of the courts ruling today (and before) that they couldn't discriminate against the gay guy.

I'm not taking sides here, I'm just saying that it's absurd to rule that you can't discriminate only if you give a reason, but you *can* discriminate if you don't give a reason.

That's just idiotic law-making to me.

D.P. · 24 Oct 2016 at 22:20

FoxEye said:
I'm not certain that's true... if they kept refusing to make the cake and gave no reason, could he not have brought the case anyway?

Because if what you say is true, that makes a mockery of the courts ruling today (and before) that they couldn't discriminate against the gay guy.

I'm not taking sides here, I'm just saying that it's absurd to rule that you can't discriminate only if you give a reason, but you *can* discriminate if you don't give a reason.

That's just idiotic law-making to me.

I think his point was if there is no evidence that there is discrimination then there would be no court case. The Bakers opened themselves up to this by giving the reason, providing evidence of discrimination.

asim18 · 24 Oct 2016 at 22:31

Woden said:
It's quite sad to see the number of people that are supposedly ok with gay people

Are you really saying it's saddening that people are OK with gay people? really?

D.P. said:
Yep, society has a long way to go.

You mean society has evolved to a point where people don't care about other people's sexual practices and it's done in private bedrooms/kitchens/dungeons/whatever.

Or are you saying everybody's sexual practices need to be constantly publicised in order for society to improve?

"I'm about to have a ****", does that make you feel better knowing I'm a ****er?

Me saying I'm about to have a **** is EXACTLY the same thing as Stacy saying she's about to suck off Brian, which is EXACTLY the same thing as Richard saying he's about to bone Tim.

I don't want to hear any of it, but just because Richard and Tim are gay they suddenly have a right to be offended?

cheesyboy · 24 Oct 2016 at 22:50

Hikari Kisugi said:
Is it true or not that Asher's bakery used to open on Sundays, until this case came along when they started not opening their bakery on Sunday, or is this just fabrication?

They accepted the order, then phoned the client to decline the order, stupid to then state why, rather than just say you are unable to fulfil it.

There's a screen grab from their website earlier in this thread which shows their opening hours includes Sundays. Was part of the discussion, mentioned in quite a few posts.

If they've changed, then it's since this blew up.

EDIT:

here:

estebanrey said:
In fairness they do make a Bakewell with only the finest picked cherries

cheesyboy · 24 Oct 2016 at 22:53

asim18 said:
Are you really saying it's saddening that people are OK with gay people? really?

You mean society has evolved to a point where people don't care about other people's sexual practices and it's done in private bedrooms/kitchens/dungeons/whatever.

Or are you saying everybody's sexual practices need to be constantly publicised in order for society to improve?

"I'm about to have a ****", does that make you feel better knowing I'm a ****er?

Me saying I'm about to have a **** is EXACTLY the same thing as Stacy saying she's about to suck off Brian, which is EXACTLY the same thing as Richard saying he's about to bone Tim.

I don't want to hear any of it, but just because Richard and Tim are gay they suddenly have a right to be offended?

Take a cold shower, son. They were ordering a ****ing cake, not making a porno.

asim18 · 24 Oct 2016 at 22:56

cheesyboy said:
Take a cold shower, son. They were ordering a ****ing cake, not making a porno.

I think it's been established that they weren't merely ordering a cake.

If the primary objective was to obtain a cake, then a cake would have been obtained, end of story because there isn't just one bakery in the world.

The actual case here, and what has evidently happened, is two homosexuals wanted to homosexualise a bakery, and they did it.

cheesyboy · 24 Oct 2016 at 22:58

asim18 said:
two homosexuals wanted to homosexualise a bakery

Talk to me about how they did that. Use a deep voice.

asim18 · 24 Oct 2016 at 23:01

cheesyboy said:
Talk to me about how they did that. Use a deep voice.

Homosexuals: Hi, can you bake a cake supporting our gayness.
Baker: No
Homosexual: But you have to support gayness. It's the law.
Baker: No, please go somewhere else.
Homosexual: Hey if we wanted some cake we would have done just that, but instead we will sue you because you're not supporting us.

cheesyboy · 24 Oct 2016 at 23:07

Should we really be expecting minority groups to have to shop around to find businesses willing to serve them? Is that the best we can achieve? Segregation?

batsy · 24 Oct 2016 at 23:15

D.P. said:
I think his point was if there is no evidence that there is discrimination then there would be no court case. The Bakers opened themselves up to this by giving the reason, providing evidence of discrimination.

I think where this occurred has a bearing. You're correct, the reason given landed them in it however I think the person bringing the case would have tested that decision on future occasions.

I'm in London again tonight for work and I can see why a refusal isn't an issue here and presumably in any large city/town in much of the UK. At home context is key. N.Ireland is small and governed by evangelicals who happily push the boundaries. I see this case as a stress test for the legislation that is currently in place. I'm not gay but anything that pushes against

the religious nature of government here is very much welcome.

asim18 · 24 Oct 2016 at 23:18

cheesyboy said:
Should we really be expecting minority groups to have to shop around to find businesses willing to serve them? Is that the best we can achieve? Segregation?

Why on earth does being gay mean you're part of a group? Why separate? You're the one with the predisposition for segregating.
Are you part of a heterosex group just because you like Women?

They're humans and gays want sexual gratification same as anyone else.

cheesyboy · 24 Oct 2016 at 23:27

asim18 said:
Why on earth does being gay mean you're part of a group? Why separate? You're the one with the predisposition for segregating.
Are you part of a heterosex group just because you like Women?

They're humans and gays want sexual gratification same as anyone else.

They're separate because when they ask for normal inclusive things like a wedding cake they get refused service.

And you like coming back to the nitty gritty of gay sex a lot don't you.

asim18 · 24 Oct 2016 at 23:34

cheesyboy said:
They're separate because when they ask for normal inclusive things like a wedding cake they get refused service.

Many people get refused service in many places for many reasons. What normal people (both straight and gay) do is they simply move on. Not look for excuses.

If a gay bar refused me service because I was heterosexual I would honestly wonder why on earth I'm in a gay bar and run for the hills. Not sue, them and force my heterosexuality down their throats. Why cant two homosexuals just walk away from a straight baker? why do they feel the need to have their sexual preference accepted by random people?

dalehitchy1 · 24 Oct 2016 at 23:37

Wow for a second here I thought I was reading the daily mail.

You can bet that if this was a muslim bakery refusing to serve a cake supporting equal rights for women....that the tone of this thread would be completely opposite.