Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

Man of Honour
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Gay pride was not born to celebrate being gay.

It evolved out of a need as human beings to break free of oppression and to exist without being criminalized, pathologized or persecuted.

Instead of wondering why there isn't a straight pride ...be grateful you have never needed one.

That's a deceitful rationalisation.

Gay pride is about being proud of being gay. That's why it's called gay pride. Because it's gay pride.

All people who support biological group pride (and thus identity) ideologies have excuses to rationalise it, apart from the extremists who are honest bigots. Gay pride, white pride, whatever pride. Same ideology, different group. It's all about believing that a single biological characteristic defines a person as a group identity and that being in the "right" group is something to be proud of. Which, of course, means believing that group is better - why else be proud of being in it?

Different biological groups are fashionable in different times and places, but that doesn't make the ideology fundamentally different. It just affects how much power any particular strain of it has and how open followers of it can be.
 
Soldato
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Straight people don't have to hide who they are in a relationship with.

Gay men don't have to hide anything either. There's a massive difference between keeping your sex life private and going on a mission to tell the entire world's population that you're gay.
 
Man of Honour
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[..]
I'd love to be able to do things like that
That's why pride is needed

Biological group pride is only needed if you want to stop people in what you deem to be a wrong biological group from doing things like that.

Reality doesn't have to be a choice between irrational prejudices and irrational prejudices. Equality is an option if enough people decide it is. Advocating for everyone to be allocated a group identity based on a biological characteristic and for one version of that characteristic to be deemed superior to others is not equality between people with different versions of that characteristic. Quite the opposite.

I am no more proud of being bisexual than I am of having relatively pale skin or being 5'11 or of having hairy toes. None of those things make me better than people who don't have the same version of those biological characteristics. Even if they did (which they don't), I still wouldn't be proud of them because I didn't do anything to get them. They're not achievements.
 
Soldato
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That much is certain. Remember its not OK for straight couples to hold hands or kiss. God forbid gay men, you'd be foolish if you thought this was 2016 not 1956.

Are you getting mixed up with transvestites or something?

Men have a duty to be manly whether they are gay or not. Holding hands is just unmanly whether you're straight or gay.

Also, guy above me is too clever for these forums!
 
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Man of Honour
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I don't think pride implies superiority. That's a bit of a stretch.

Why would someone be proud of something unless they regarded it as superior to something else? Would you, for example, be proud of preferring apples to oranges? Or oranges to apples? I like some beers. I don't like any ciders. Should I be proud of that? Why?

Do you think I should be proud of being "white"? If being proud of being in the "right" biological group doesn't imply a belief in the superiority of that group, there can't be anything wrong with white pride.
 
Man of Honour
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Are you getting mixed up with transvestites or something?

Men have a duty to be manly whether they are gay or not. Holding hands is just unmanly whether you're straight or gay.

Also, guy above me is too clever for these forums!

And here I am disagreeing with you about this aspect of the issue.

All this "manly" stuff is just made-up nonsense that's nothing more than fashion and very silly indeed. That's what gender is - fashion - which is why it changes so much.

A good example that is local in terms of space and time is pink. ~100 years ago, pink was a strongly masculine colour in this country. Within a short period of time it became an extremely strongly feminine colour in this country. Pink hadn't changed, obviously. It's just that enough people with enough power chose to change that part of gender. Easily done because gender is just a collection of fashions.

There's a multitude of examples from all over the world and across recorded history. For example, in ancient Rome a minidress was the standard manly garment. No manly man would wear his dress with a hem below the knee and no womanly woman would wear hers with a hem above the knee.

So holding hands in public is as masculine or feminine as people say it is because it's all just silly fashion anyway. Whatever it is now, it could be different next week. Or a mile down the road. Most of gender is just nonsense people make up for no good reason. Hardly any of it is real and that which is real is only tendencies that should never be applied to any individual and should always be treated as description and not proscription. So no man has any duty to be manly and no woman has any duty to be womanly, not even in the tiny part of gender that has any basis in reality.


Also, I don't care if people hold hands and kiss in public. But that's subjective. The lack of reality in gender is objective.
 
Soldato
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Gay men don't have to hide anything either. There's a massive difference between keeping your sex life private and going on a mission to tell the entire world's population that you're gay.

This has nothing to do with sex itself. It's about sexuality. He didn't bend his boyfriend over the counter, he ordered a cake.

We had another member here say he can't even hold his partners hand. Yet I hold my wife's every day without fear.
 
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Associate
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That seems a rather unkind nickname, regardless of your orientation ;)

Edit/ So as not to sound too flippant, I do otherwise agree with you, but do my best to stay out of threads like this.
 
Soldato
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That's irrelevant to this case because the bakery was and is willing to serve homosexuals. They're not discriminating against homosexuals. They don't care if a customer is homosexual or not. This has been repeated many times.
It's not irrelevant and it's not false.

The difference between what the bakery will sell and won't is separated by the sexual orientation being celebrated by the cake. They'll make a hetero wedding cake but not a gay one. The bakery owners have made that clear.

That's quite plainly discrimination.

Making false statements about the bakery in order to smear them implies that the people doing so don't have any reasonable counter-argument to the bakery's position.
I've made more than 100 posts in this thread, of which maybe half aren't taking the ****. There are tons of arguments and counter-arguments among those :)

I'm not comfortable with people being forced to publically and actively promote any specific legal/political/social position simply because there's enough power behind it. That's the issue here - the owners of the bakery didn't want to have their business actively promote a specific legal position. They weren't even speaking against that position. They just didn't want to play an active role in promoting it. So now there's legal precedent that everyone must publically and actively promote any legal/political/social position that has enough power behind it. Are you sure that's an entirely good thing?
The bakers have as I mentioned above, made it clear that they took their position not because of political issues, but because of an ideological one.

Here's what Mr McArthur, one of the directors, had to say:

"The directors and myself looked at it and considered it and thought that this order was at odds with our beliefs.

"It certainly was at odds with what the Bible teaches, and on the following Monday we rang the customer to let him know that we couldn't take his order."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

Incidentally, why do you specify minority? I know it's fashionable to rationalise irrational prejudice against people by saying they're not a minority (even if they are and in any case it's obviously irrelevant), but perhaps that's not what you meant.

I specify minority because it's relevant to the idea of segregation or oppression. It's rather difficult to segregate or oppress a majority, since they have the bigger voice and, in the case of services being offered, the bigger spending power. That bigger spending power/voice means that 'having to shop around' isn't going to be much of a bind - there are loads of alternatives for people like gay-sex-obsessed-but completely-heterosexual Asim (whom I was responding to) to go to in the hypothetical situation that he is turned away for being too massive a hetero. Not so for homosexuals, should we accept that businesses are ok to refuse to serve.

That's why we have protections in place for minorities.

It's a shame you always post at night, Angillion. These long responses of yours are hard work to digest in one go, such that I usually don't bother. But you do at least have some reasoning, even if it's always the same reasoning for every topic :D
 
Soldato
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Why would someone be proud of something unless they regarded it as superior to something else? Would you, for example, be proud of preferring apples to oranges? Or oranges to apples? I like some beers. I don't like any ciders. Should I be proud of that? Why?

What if liking apples got you thrown in jail? Chemically castrated? Beaten up or murdered?

You could either pretend you don't like apples in public or you could double down and tell the world that you're not ashamed to like apples. That's how gay pride started.
 
Soldato
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That's a deceitful rationalisation.

Gay pride is about being proud of being gay. That's why it's called gay pride. Because it's gay pride.

All people who support biological group pride (and thus identity) ideologies have excuses to rationalise it, apart from the extremists who are honest bigots. Gay pride, white pride, whatever pride. Same ideology, different group. It's all about believing that a single biological characteristic defines a person as a group identity and that being in the "right" group is something to be proud of. Which, of course, means believing that group is better - why else be proud of being in it?

Different biological groups are fashionable in different times and places, but that doesn't make the ideology fundamentally different. It just affects how much power any particular strain of it has and how open followers of it can be.

The idea of Pride (gay version) is to celebrate something that is traditionally vilified. It's a counter-balance to negativity, rather than an attempt at promotion over and above heterosexuality.

Black History Month is similar. A time to recognise a history that is often marginalised/ignored. Every month is White History Month, much like every day is Hetero-Pride day.

If we lived in a truly post-sexuality time, then Gay Pride would be unnecessary. Unfortunately we don't and pretending we do (as your belief seems to) is naive at best, or otherwise simply ignorant.
 
Soldato
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I was a little confused as to the ruling. Isn't gay marriage banned in Northern Ireland? So they refused to bake a cake promoting a banned act?

But they were happy to serve the couple any other cake?

Also they are Christian so have pretty strong views on the subject. (Not that I'm religious or have any time for it). But when did one persons rights trump another's?

In my opinion they refused to serve a customer because they disagreed with their slogan. I imagine this happens a lot in shops. Bakeries, posters, fliers, leaflets. But because it's to do with one sexuality it's gone to court?
 
Soldato
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I don't think they should be forced to sell a cake promoting a political/religious view that they don't agree with.

They would have served them without issue if it didn't have the specific message on the cake so you can't claim they are refusing to serve them because of their sexuality.
 
Soldato
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In my opinion they refused to serve a customer because they disagreed with their slogan. I imagine this happens a lot in shops. Bakeries, posters, fliers, leaflets. But because it's to do with one sexuality it's gone to court?
In the opinion of the director of the bakers, they refused because the Bible disagrees with homosexuality.

"The directors and myself looked at it and considered it and thought that this order was at odds with our beliefs.

"It certainly was at odds with what the Bible teaches, and on the following Monday we rang the customer to let him know that we couldn't take his order."


I was a little confused as to the ruling. Isn't gay marriage banned in Northern Ireland? So they refused to bake a cake promoting a banned act?
Kids driving cars is illegal too - would they refuse a cake depicting such?

Also they are Christian so have pretty strong views on the subject. (Not that I'm religious or have any time for it). But when did one persons rights trump another's?
Whose rights have been trumped? I'm quite sure there is no such right as The Right To Not Make Gay Cakes.
 
Caporegime
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In the opinion of the director of the bakers, they refused because the Bible disagrees with homosexuality.

"The directors and myself looked at it and considered it and thought that this order was at odds with our beliefs.

"It certainly was at odds with what the Bible teaches, and on the following Monday we rang the customer to let him know that we couldn't take his order."


Kids driving cars is illegal too - would they refuse a cake depicting such?


Whose rights have been trumped? I'm quite sure there is no such right as The Right To Not Make Gay Cakes.

Kids driving cars is clearly a fantasy scene. What a pathetic comparison!

I hope you're forced to produce pro trump propaganda, then we'll see what you think about having to do things you don't agree with! :p
 
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