Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

Great vid. It illustrates Daniel with his wife. And presumably his mother and father in the background hugging.

So Daniel wants a world where he is free to marry, girls and boys, and they can be recognised in law etc and be happy but he doesn't want gay folk, the small number who want to marry, to have the same opportunity.

From 2 minutes what he says is epic.

And what would Daniel's do if he was gay? What would his parents have done then? Made him in to a pie?

Is it just me or does he look like a Leprechaun? I think this is one of the risks if you choose one of those magic professions like candle stick maker, cobbler, soldier, sailor.
 
His mother I'd presume. If you're into that sort of thing.

jesus she must have had him young?! (I'm talking about the 'bit' at the front - not thon thing standing in the back, you're welcome to that :p)

Looks like she may already have had a fresh cream filling, she looks pregnant...

even better, no need for rubber overcoats!
 
But wasting your seed is punishable by death

I think the bible allows dipping pregnant women without fear of your penis falling off (though in this day and age there's probably a higher chance of it falling off if you don't use a rubber overcoat)

Plus it's technically not wasted, not my fault she's up the spout already.
 
Great vid. It illustrates Daniel with his wife. And presumably his mother and father in the background hugging.

So Daniel wants a world where he is free to marry, girls and boys, and they can be recognised in law etc and be happy but he doesn't want gay folk, the small number who want to marry, to have the same opportunity.

From 2 minutes what he says is epic.

And what would Daniel's do if he was gay? What would his parents have done then? Made him in to a pie?

Is it just me or does he look like a Leprechaun? I think this is one of the risks if you choose one of those magic professions like candle stick maker, cobbler, soldier, sailor.

I don't think he said he didn't want a world where gay folk can marry - just that he as a Christian didn't want to have to promote it?

also, you say he looks like a leprechaun - ironically I thought he looked a bit gay. there's definitely a bit of campness on the go there!
 
OK, this is going to be a huge post but I have to correct you here.

TLDR: The KJV is a biased translation with plenty of errors.

Long version...

The KJV was the Church of England's second attempt at an anti-Protestant Bible, following the lacklustre performance of the Bishops' Bible. Almost 40 years later, the heavily biased Calvinist/Puritan Geneva Bible still reigned as the most popular and influential translation. This was a constant thorn in the side of the Anglican Church.

In 1603 King James VI of Scotland became King James I of England and Ireland, following the union of the Scottish and English crowns and the death of Elizabeth I. His mother—the infamous Mary I, also known as Bloody Mary—was Catholic. James himself had been raised in Scotland, where the Church of Scotland was slowly developing under the influence of Reformed theology.

James had no love for Catholicism, but the Scottish Church presented significant challenges. Instead of bishops ruling over individual administrative territories via the authority invested in them by the monarch, it was run by ministers and elders who required no higher authority than their own. James’ attempts to reform this system were strongly resisted.

When James ascended to the throne of England he automatically became head of the Anglican Church. Now he was in charge of a theological system in which all authority flowed directly from him. The bishops supported this model (not least because they benefited from it themselves) and James correctly perceived that they would be useful allies in his ongoing campaign against the Protestants and Catholics.

In 1604 James convened the Hampton Court Conference, at which a new English translation was proposed. Although it is commonly referred to as 'the Authorised Version', there is no evidence that he ever issued an official 'authorisation' for the KJV.

James' involvement with a new Bible translation had always been motivated more by politics than theology, and the KJV would serve his purpose very well:



(Alister McGrath, In the Beginning (2001), 171).

Work began immediately. The primary goal was to publish a Bible sympathetic to Anglican theology that would topple the supremacy of the Calvinist/Puritan Geneva Bible.

54 scholars were suggested, and 47 chosen. They were all Anglicans, and all except one—Sir Henry Savile—were members of the Anglican clergy. Several of them were more comfortable writing in Latin than English, a fact that inevitably influenced the quality of their translation.
Six committees were formed, with two each in the universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and Westminster.

James explicitly instructed the translators that Puritan influence should be excluded. To ensure this Bishop of London added an extra rule: the translators were forbidden to include any footnotes that strayed into interpretation or theological commentary; they were restricted to cross-references and translation notes only.

The translators were also instructed to translate certain Greek and Hebrew words in a way that reflected Anglican usage. Examples of Anglican bias include:

  • 'Easter' instead of 'Passover'
  • 'bishop' instead of 'overseer'
  • 'deacon' instead of 'minister' or 'servant'

This gave the KJV a robust Anglican vocabulary that reflected its hierarchical ecclesiology and reinforced James' authority as head of the Anglican Church. The translators' Introduction to the KJV proudly states:



The Old Testament was translated from the Hebrew Rabbinic Bible of Yaakov ben Hayyim, which is considered a good example of the Ben Asher (a Masoretic text). However, the KJV translators did not accept the text without question, but instead adjusted Christological passages to match the Septuagint and Vulgate. This theological bias undermined the accuracy of the translation.

Although absent from later editions, the Apocrypha was included in the original King James Bible. Its text was translated from the Septuagint, the Latin Vulgate, and the Latin translation of Junius.

The New Testament was translated primarily from the Greek critical texts of Theodore Beza, and Robert Estienne's edition of the Latin Vulgate. These texts were based on Erasmus' Textus Receptus, a critical text based on six manuscripts from the corrupt Byzantine text type, none of which were any older than the 10th century.

The translation team also made use of the Syriac New Testament, but did not consult any ancient Greek manuscripts. Their reliance on the work of Beza, Estienne, and Erasmus led them to accept interpolations from the Vulgate that were carried over into the KJV. They also carried over all the errors from Erasmus.

Many people believe the KJV is a 'word-for-word' translation. This is absolutely untrue. In their Introduction the translators themselves confirm that their Bible is a dynamic translation, guided by context rather than direct equivalence:



The quality of the KJV's translation was not universally accepted. A number of highly regarded critical scholars were appalled by what they considered a very sloppy job.
Hugh Broughton, the most highly respected Hebraist of the 17th century (excluded from the KJV translation committee because he was maddeningly impossible to work with) attacked the KJV because it wasn't a word-for-word translation, saying:



Nevertheless, such critics were in a minority.

When considering the best way to render a verse into English, the translation team cut corners wherever they could. They copied from the Bishops' Bible, the Geneva Bible, and William Tyndale's translation (~30% of the KJV is lifted directly from Tyndale). Many of the alternative readings in the marginal notes were taken from the Douay-Rheims Bible.

The style of English in the KJV is deliberately archaic; it does not reflect contemporary King James English, but instead borrows the older style of the Geneva Bible. For example:

  • 'verily' and 'it came to pass': these two expressions were already out of date by 1604.
  • 'thou/thee' are used as singular pronouns and 'ye/you' are used as plural pronouns: this usage was also outdated, having been replaced by the forms we know today
  • 'his' is used as the third person possessive pronoun instead of 'its': yet 'its' was already considered the proper form by 1598
  • '-eth' for the third person singular form of the verb instead of '-es' (e.g. 'appeareth' instead of 'appears'): yet '-es' was already established as the preferred ending, and predominates in the plays of Shakespeare and Marlowe

This use of outdated English was a deliberate decision for marketing reasons: the Geneva was still dominant and the KJV translators decided their Bible would need to emulate it in order to gain wide acceptance. William Shakespeare himself had used the Geneva Bible, which was another good reason for making the KJV sound similar to its rival.

The first edition of the King James Bible was published in 1611, but several revisions followed due to thousands of misprints and variations in spelling, etc. amongst publishers. (The KJV we know today is actually the updated Oxford edition of 1769, with standardised English).

When compared to a superior, modern translation like the NET Bible, the KJV's shortcomings are quickly apparent:

Accurate_Translation.jpg


Disclaimer: I am a pastor with a tertiary qualification in Christian history and theology. This post quotes two posts originally written for my Facebook page, Christian History (see here and here).


I understand your position but I don't recognise any translation which traces it's roots from the terribly corrupt individuals Westcott and Hort and their codex sinaiticus and codex vaticanus translations.

The monks who had the Sinaiticus in their possession were going to burn it because they thought it was trash...

There's plenty of information available about the role and intent of these two unsavoury characters and if you are a theologian I'm sure you are already aware of it.
 
This thread is hilarious.

People celebrating a victory for gay rights by mocking another group (Christianity but religion in general). Bravo!

yup, can't beat a bit of one-upmanship. wonder how the thread would have panned out had the bakery won out?

something like this......
Christians giving it - yes we are the best, god made you all so you can't tell us what to do.....burn all sinners!
Gays giving it - waaaaahh all the straight people hate us, that's it we're off to have a march - we want gay cakes everywhere and whenever we want them!

:p:p:D:D
 
To be fair all this equality nonsense has got out of hand.

Correct we shouldnt discriminate because of skin colour, religious believes, sex or sexuality etc etc but whats wrong with say me, refusing to do business with somebody because I think they are a monumental jerk?

Is that ok???

That's the thing, you can choose not to do business with someone as long as your decision to do so is reasonable under the law. If someone is being a jerk or abusive to you then you can refuse to serve them purely on those grounds.
 
To be fair all this equality nonsense has got out of hand.

Correct we shouldnt discriminate because of skin colour, religious believes, sex or sexuality etc etc but whats wrong with say me, refusing to do business with somebody because I think they are a monumental jerk?

Is that ok???

yes.
 
I don't see why we shouldn't "Discriminate" on religious beliefs, since they're entirely down to the individual to decide what to follow/do. Skin colour/gender/sexuality (arguably) are not a choice.
 
I don't see why we shouldn't "Discriminate" on religious beliefs, since they're entirely down to the individual to decide what to follow/do. Skin colour/gender/sexuality (arguably) are not a choice.

Gender is a choice. Heck, we have a few members on here who have changed theirs that we know of and probably more that we don't. Sexual feelings and predilections aren't a choice but acting on them is.

What makes you think that feeling the calling of a religion is a choice? I know a number of muslims that certainly didn't have a choice.
 
I don't see why we shouldn't "Discriminate" on religious beliefs, since they're entirely down to the individual to decide what to follow/do. Skin colour/gender/sexuality (arguably) are not a choice.

That simply in not true Jono. Think about what you just said.

I was born in the UK and raised Church of England and I believed in Santa Claus. No one asked. I had to reason it out when I was an adult.

If I was born to Muslim parents I would be Muslim and I would not be able to leave the religion without risk.

How is that an individuals choice?

If you believe in the original sin how is that a choice?

If we have all been homo sapiens for the last 150,000 to 200,000 years (modern man) would you not agree that religion labels people and facilitate pointless discrimination?
 
That isn't the point. You said that Christianity views the Bible as the the word of God/Jesus and ergo God/Jesus said those words. My point is that isn't true, the Catholic church views the Bible as the message of God, and it takes interpretation to understand the message. It is not literally what God/Jesus said.

That is the Catholic position, and has been since the second Vatican council in 1962. Since at least that date the largest Christian denomination has not taken the standpoint you described.

Indeed.
For all your talk Vincent, you will find the 'Christian' community quoting much more happily from the OT, than the NT when it comes to justifying their hatred for sections of society, or things they detest.
Rarely quoting Christ's messages, tolerance, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, he who is without sin and all that lark.
 
Ah the old political correctness gone mad defence. We live in a society where individuals should not be refused service or EQUAL rights based on someones prejudices or outdated sense of morals.

So a Muslim baker should print a mohammed cake even if it is against his 'outdated' sense of morals?

The EDL gay wing would like their 'EDL gay wing against homophobic religions' cake printed, complete with mohammed picture. Muslim bakers refusing to do so on religious grounds would be 'discriminating' against them.
 
I understand your position but I don't recognise any translation which traces it's roots from the terribly corrupt individuals Westcott and Hort and their codex sinaiticus and codex vaticanus translations.

Your position is completely untenable.

The monks who had the Sinaiticus in their possession were going to burn it because they thought it was trash...

This is an unsubstantiated myth perpetuated by Tischendorf, to mitigate his role in the theft of the text.

There's plenty of information available about the role and intent of these two unsavoury characters and if you are a theologian I'm sure you are already aware of it.

I am familiar with Westcott and Hort, but they are both completely irrelevant to modern Bible translations, which are based on the NA27 and NA28, not the Westcott/Hort text.
 
Indeed.
For all your talk Vincent, you will find the 'Christian' community quoting much more happily from the OT, than the NT when it comes to justifying their hatred for sections of society, or things they detest.
Rarely quoting Christ's messages, tolerance, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, he who is without sin and all that lark.

because most 'Christians' or people who identify as 'Christian' have seldom read the bible at all let alone read it more than once or even enough to understand what ever messages it might contain (whether the message is right/accurate/scientifically valid is not the purpose of this thread).

Lots of people use many different texts to justify their atrocities and always have and will do, look at what's currently happening with the middle east. Look at what happened with Blair's dodgy dossier. People have an agenda and use any possible source, fraudulent, unbelievable, irrational though they may be, to justify it.

as far as I'm concerned the OT is a story of the Jewish people and how God preserved them and lists the commandments they were to follow for those approximately 4000 years covered/governed by the OT/Mosaic law. Now anything said in the NT is what the gentiles (and the jews though they don't accept Jesus as their saviour) should adhere to as Christ fulfilled the Mosiac law. homosexuality is mentioned in the NT in the same context as in the OT after this fulfillment of the law, what food you eat, clothes you wear, length of your hair etc etc is not mentioned (in the same context).

For the record, I detest homosexuals no more or less than anyone else (ie not at all), it's not for me to judge, just to chose to follow, or not, the commandments listed in the NT. In the context of a supposedly irrational subject (religion) I don't think that is a particularly irrational position to hold. Whilst I wouldn't seek to promote homosexuality I wouldn't feel it my place to make the life of a homosexual a misery. Let them be married, let them kiss in the street, hold hands, have equality etc I don't care. I don't think this is atypical of the majority of heterosexual peoples opinion on the subject.

If God is real, if the Bible is his word, then he will sort it out.
 
Ah nothing like a visit to GD and reading some of the bigoted and ignorant comments in here to destroy your faith in humanity...

rather an empty and pointless post if you're not going to highlight which posts you feel are 'bigoted' and 'ignorant' or attempt to criticise or correct them?
 
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