I'd like to apologise to the entire of the UK (and Ireland) on behalf of Northern Ireland for being the most backward, unprogressive, petty, problem causing ****hole you've ever had to endure. The 12th is coming and I'm sure as a country we'll embarrass ourselves even further so sorry in advance for that too.
Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers
- Thread starter dowie
- Start date
Soldato
Isn't this exactly what happened? They aren't refusing to sell or make them a cake, they are refusing to make them a cake with that design on it.
Associate
- Joined
- 7 Dec 2006
- Posts
- 1,632
Edit: just googled. Bert and Ernie are rumoured to be gay. My childhood is smashed.
Not to mention Bert's pasty...
Man of Honour
Islam has even harsher opinions towards Gays than Christianity, so if we leave the request, the cake design, the same and have a Muslim refuse to make it then they would have broken the law in exactly the same way.
If they were asked to produce a cake that was specifically inflaming to Islam, say a cartoon of Mohammad in bed with Elton John, etc, or even if we put Jesus in that cartoon and go back to our christians, then the case is more complex, because what they were asked to produce would have been quite hateful and possibly hatefueled.
According to the bible, which I do not believe, homosexuality is a sin. So are a lot of things, so does this baker refuse to produce wedding cakes of cohabbiting hetrosexual couples? Or for divorce parties or divorcees remarrying? Or for liars, or people who have sworn at thier parents?
Protestant theology does not even admit a hirearchy of sin, so a lie is just as bad as a single sex orgy.
What I'm trying to show is that the law is correct because these people are using their religion to justify thier unreasonable hatred. If it was a case of sticking to the rules as laid out in Leviticus etc, then they would even refuse to serve women during thier menstration.
You can not discriminate on only a few principals, on Gender, sexuality, race and religion.
A Baker can't refuse to make a cake for a specific wedding or christening. They could refuse to do wedding cakes completley but they can't exclude just one part of the wedding cale market.
How do you know who was catching and pitching in this relationship?
SUrely these guys switched?
No need to apologise for a mess caused by centuries of terrible policies and oppression!
Soldato
Well, you haven't actually answered my question. I'm not comparing homosexuality to these other acts but my point was that at one point homosexuality was illegal although the other two remain illegal.
Actually to be quite frank the bible says the act of homosexuality is an “abomination” (Leviticus 18:22 - not my words). I’m not saying homosexuality is anti-Christian, I’m saying it is a sin, it’s anti-God, just in the same way as any other sin such as adultery or lying etc.
By the way, I’m not saying the cake shop owners wouldn’t serve liars or adulterers but I’m pretty certain they would have said the same thing had they been asked to write something on a cake that was pro-adultery (not the greatest example but clarifies the point).
It’s all too easy to say that Christians don’t like gays and people hide behind that in order to dislike Christians, seeing them as intolerant. The truth is that Christianity teaches that one should “love your neighbour, even as yourself” – but that doesn’t mean you compromise everything you believe. It IS possible to love someone (platonic) and not agree with them or a lifestyle choice.
Wow, where has it been proven that these shop owners have used religion to justify unreasonable hatred?
As I stated above, just because I might not agree with you on a particular matter doesn't mean I hate you, it doesn't necessarily mean it is unreasonable either – even if it is due to my religious beliefs or even my own moral code. I don't agree with my wife on certain things but it doesn't mean I hate her or even being unreasonable! A good friend of mine is gay but I don't hate the guy, he’s a good guy, I just don't agree with his lifestyle choice but we simply agree to disagree and that's life (yes yes yes I know we all have a good friend that is gay blah blah!!)
I find it hard to understand why people find it hard to understand that disagreement and hatred are very different.
Last edited:
Soldato
What about someone writing something on a cake which sings the praises of Sunday working?
It's great to pick and choose your religion as suits, but there should probably be some explanation as to why certain "anti-god" acts which hurt no-one (punishable by death!) are ok but others, involving other people's sexual preferences, aren't ok. Beyond merely saying God doesn't like it, I mean.
Probably people would still be intolerant of other people who live and think differently, but they would no longer be able to rationalise that their opinions are in fact a devine revelation of the absolute nature of morality and God's truth.
They would have no crutch to rest their opinion upon otherthan thier own intolerance!
Soldato
Reminds me somewhat of this story
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-12214368
Religious belief should be no excuse for bigotry.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-12214368
Religious belief should be no excuse for bigotry.
Atheists already do this very thing, and they don't have the crutch of "but God says" to rest upon.
There really would be very little difference, because as I said, all these complaints are because of Humans, not religion. If you believe religion to be a man-made construct, then by that very definition, it's humans that are the source of the problems, and will continue to be with or without "religion".
Associate
I don't see a problem with this. The bakery weren't refusing to serve them because they were gay, they were refusing because they strongly disagreed with the message that was going on the cake. Although I support gay marriage and gay rights, I shouldn't shove my opinion down other peoples throat, and they shouldn't do the same to me. Simple.
If I ran a bakery and Christian's came in asking for a cake that said, "All gays should be stoned" I would refuse them, not because they're Christian, but because I don't agree with the message being conveyed.
If I ran a bakery and Christian's came in asking for a cake that said, "All gays should be stoned" I would refuse them, not because they're Christian, but because I don't agree with the message being conveyed.
Had a long piece here. Can't be bothered to argue it - no one will see the bigger picture anyway.
Moral of the story, you open a business, you agree to serve customers no matter who they are, otherwise expect to go out of business.
Moral of the story, you open a business, you agree to serve customers no matter who they are, otherwise expect to go out of business.
Last edited:
Not quite the same though: "All gays should be stoned" is an incitement to violence and probably falls under some sort of hatred law, whereas a statement supporting gay marriage is an entirely legal opinion to promote.
Soldato
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...demn-Christian-B-amp-B-owners-says-judge.html
Yeah yeah, the DM but It was the first result.
Soldato
Why does everyone come into the thread with a comparison with a message of discrimination or violence of some form? The gay cake in the OP was celebrating the equality which it represented, without attempting to demean, discriminate or injure any other party (save Bert and Ernie, perhaps
)
Soldato
Good thing they weren't refused service for being gay.
Caporegime
What? Of course they can! So if anyone requests a baker to make any sort of cake, they are legally obligated to do so? The hell is with some of you people?
As someone who is pro-gay, this whole story is doing nothing for the cause, as it were.
So strawman, such logical fallacy.
No one is saying it's "fine" in that there isn't an issue, it's that it's unreasonable to expect everyone to not discriminate at all, if it's not for religious reasons, it's for other reasons, and trying to force your views on them, saying they are wrong wrong wrong is not really much better than what they're doing.
It's better to leave them to it and go somewhere else. I've had people try to racially abuse me (they got the race wrong), and to be honest it didn't actually bother me, I pitied their small-mindedness and just got on with my life.
Wanting to get into litigation because you don't like someone's views really isn't the right idea.