I have the opposite experience, I have several issues with, shall we say, over enthusiastic gay men, even to the point of my family being threatened once...only once though as I don't take too kindly to that kind of thing. It is basically because one of my closest friends is gay. The expectation in the gay community amongst some is that I should be gay or I shouldn't be there. Also to adress the issue that being openly gay in some areas is an invitation to trouble, well so it being English, or Scottish, or a Manchester United Supporter, or an Asian or any number of things that stupid people will discriminate over, including gay people, especially men it seems.
Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers
- Thread starter dowie
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I have the opposite experience, I have several issues with, shall we say, over enthusiastic gay men, even to the point of my family being threatened once...only once though as I don't take too kindly to that kind of thing. It is basically because one of my closest friends is gay. The expectation in the gay community amongst some is that I should be gay or I shouldn't be there. Also to adress the issue that being openly gay in some areas is an invitation to trouble, well so it being English, or Scottish, or a Manchester United Supporter, or an Asian or any number of things that stupid people will discriminate over, including gay people, especially men it seems.
except they will if its the prevailing attitude in thier area.
for example im gonna guess this bakery has had a massive increase in business from christian groups....
far more than it will have lost from gay groups
Of course not and you can certainly eliminate it or very nearly for employment and services but you'll never be able to stop people from singling people out because they are different. You can try and make it better but it'll never go away completely. This topic has strayed pretty far anyway so it was just more of a general statement. You can punish people for attacking people in the street but it'll still happen.
I don't buy that the gay hating Christians make up that many people to be honest, and I would expect it would have a knock-on effect with regards to other groups that have also been oppressed.
Well it is Northern Ireland...
Soldato
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Not really sure if baking a cake with a political message means you are supporting or endorsing said political message. Tricky one though and can completely understand why the baker refused.
As an anecdote, 2 weeks ago, a man shouted '****ing fa***t *****' at me and my boyfriend because we were holding hands in public. This is in London which is one of the best places in the UK for gay people. All we did was hold hands in a public place. :/
Please fully star out all swearing in future as per the rules. Thank you.
It doesn't necessarily, true. However a refusal to print can more easily be seen as a refusal to support/refusal to endorse... disassociating yourself from the campaign/idea/proposal you disagree with. I think they've got every right to do this as they have freedom of speech/freedom of expression, you can't force a business/person to produce something they fundamentally disagree with.
I disagree with their stance and am pro-gay marriage, but I support their right to do this - they've dismissed the campaign/idea not the customer.
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them bakers should tell em to get bent
Soldato
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ho ho ho
I now have an image of a tall muscle bound chiselled adonis Castiel beating off (not in that way!) admiring gay men with a stick on a daily basis.
I'm willing to go out on a limb & suggest your experience may be the exception to the rule
.I now have an image of a tall muscle bound chiselled adonis Castiel beating off (not in that way!) admiring gay men with a stick on a daily basis.
I'm willing to go out on a limb & suggest your experience may be the exception to the rule
I do to have a stick...
I don't know, as a group and in certain environs they can be pretty much as prejudiced and bigoted as anyone else. I just stopped going to places that my mate chose and stay out of gaybars..
Soldato
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They get calls at the main bakery almost daily from all over the place (not just the UK) with messages of support and offer of financial assistance for legal defence. Pretty much all of them are God-botherers showing 'solidarity'.
Soldato
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Your job as a baker is not really to support or refuse to endorse anything, you bake cakes. They were not associated with the campaign to begin with so not sure how objecting to baking the cake with their message on it disassociates them from anything.
You could make a point if it was something that was anti something or spreading hate of some sort, but this wasn't either. I personally do not support homosexual marriage but that's my personal choice for what ever reasons, and I don't think It would have bothered me what ever gay message was on the cake. I'm not endorsing it, it's just text that they are using to promote something. If it was "down with blacks" message on it fair enough but this wasn't anti anything.
not baking a cake by default means they're not providing any material support/not involved with something they object to
they can, as a business or company, endorse whatever they want within reason... campaign for issues, chose to not campaign for other issues - oppose issues etc...etc... You get to chose what you will and won't produce etc..
you could equally say that a wedding photographer's job is to take the pictures and produce them as the couple want - but we've already heard from one wedding photographer in this thread who simply won't allow say selective colouring because he doesn't like it - that's simply his choice in dictating what he is and isn't prepared to create. A business doesn't have to just accept any job, be told exactly what to create - they have every right to turn down jobs, turn down business... so long as they're not discriminating against the customer him/herself but rather objecting to the product then there shouldn't be an issue.
Freedom of speech isn't dependent upon you only objecting to approved 'wrong' issues... if we apply criteria to what speech we're allowed to object to then its no longer free.
OK so as a Muslim would you happily make a cake stating 'Jesus is the son of God' for a Christian group? What about if it included a picture of Jesus (so a picture of a prophet...)? I'd presume that lots of Muslims would object to the second and quite a few would object to the first too... and they'd have every right to. You can't oblige someone to create something they don't believe in. It doesn't have to be hateful... such a cake isn't in itself but it also goes against the beliefs of another group of people.
Sure maybe some Muslims could create the first cake and argue that they're just making the cake and don't agree with the message.... but then again gay marriage is controversial for some Christians - rightly or wrongly they see it as something that is wrong, is 'sinful'.... Maybe baking this cake for the baker is like a Romanian printer being asked to print some UKIP fliers...
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Soldato
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It's not really providing material support or facilitating a campaign, they are baking a cake. I don't think bakeries values should be on political campaigns but rather baking cakes and setting aside everything else. It's not like the cake would have been shown off, from so and so's bakery, they are in support of our campaign. Rather here's a cakes and here's our message. They are in no way shape or form linked together. Would the bakery be happy to produce anti gay cakes? if so they would then be discriminating by not offering the same cakes to pro gay people.
I don't think comparison with the photographer is comparable since clearly the baker offers the service to begin with aka writing messages and images, where as the photograph fro the onset doesn't offer the service. It would be comparable if the photographer didn't allow certain colourings to some peoples photos and on others.
Up to this point no issue, its not my beliefs. Just like if I ran a printing service and a client asked me to print bibles. I'm not endorsing the bible or its teaching, I just print stuff.
That would be something a Muslim could not do by action, difference is that would be across the board rather than selective. It is not endorsing or facilitating, simply something they couldn't do irrespective of the client.
Writing someone's text wouldn't fall in to that category, it wouldn't go against your belief in writing since your writing someone else's belief.
They believe gay marriage is wrong, not writing text for someone else's belief of gay marriage which has nothing to do with you unless the word "gay" was forbidden to be drawn out hence why the picture comparison isn't really viable within these boundaries.
No doubt it's a tricky one, it would be hard for anyone to sit on either side of the fence and say what's wrong and right. Nor do I believe the bakery should be punished.
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Soldato
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No castiel...
Printing a picture is just drawing by machine, also as I mentioned earlier inciting hatred or messages which were anti something would / could be objected.
What a weird question considering you knew the answer. Hmm
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I personally think that, if a company offers a service to the public, it is entirely up to the company if they choose to serve a customer or not. I'm not against gay's in anyway, but I do believe that society in general nowadays gets on it's high horse far to quickly when things like this happen. From what I've read it's not that they refused to serve the customer on this occasion, it's the fact they refused to print a political message onto the cake they don't agree with.