I have read the thread all the way through thanks. Have you?
Documented fact? Please show me.
Your first flimsy points as expected have no substance, seriously IF you HAVE read all the way through I suggest you try again, anyway for the laggardly among us........
LINK , again can I say this has already been posted, just sayin....indicative of your diligence imho, you have reached my cba threshold already, wasted some of my precious time. You will note, I am correct in this and you are wrong y?
, you stridently claimed you had read the thread , egg, face rearrange.
I personally feel they probably were involved, as the actions of the NUM were both illegal and counter productive, costing the mining industry and the country an awful lot of money (
LINK ). Their actions did create an issue for national security as it was akin to holding the country to ransom and very militant (one reason why the programme of closures was postponed was so that the NCB could stock pile coal to shield the country from striking). However, to what extent they were actually involved is a mystery, and hard evidence in the online public domain appears to be somewhat lacking. Or do you have evidence to the contrary?
blah blah blah, see above
Floundering? I think not. With regard to comments regarding the Army, that was my mistake and I apologise. I had mistaken another posters comments for yours.
yup, you were wrong, seeing a pattern?
I have highlighted the parts which I think show this is a personal experience post, and one being specific to Stoke. By the way, he may not have put a title in big letters saying "THIS POST IS ABOUT STOKE ONLY" but people who read it will understand it is. In case they don't, he goes on to further qualify his position in a later post. So really, your point is moot.
NOT definitive at all, can I say (because you did it so I`m allowed), it was certainly heavily implied
, and to be clear WHY would anyone be so obviously derogatory?
But you will happily believe the secret services were used without being able to present evidence to support it?
Nope, its fact y?
I work in a job where I have met hundreds of people, from all over the country and all walks of life. I have met some really interesting folks, and yes I have heard many many stories about all kinds of things. Its one of the few things I love about my job. But of course I cannot present you with evidence to that effect, so I must be lying. Correct?
Yes, correct, but any fool knows that the onus of proof is on the storyteller.
I suppose I could apply the same stance to the 'story' you told about your family being involved in a mining accident. If you had told me that face to face, why would I have any reason to believe you? Afterall, you cant really call an overview of the event on Wikipedia evidence. Conversely, why would you have any reason to lie? You will most likely state how true your story is and how you have no reason to lie. True? Does that mindset not also apply to the things others say? Or does it only apply when it serves your cause?
lol are you saying Knochshinnoch disaster didn't happen?, being so spectacularly immature and difficult about something that is obvious fact tells me and all reading this a lot about you.
So what do you accept as fact? Please provide details. Making blanket statements about things being "well documented" seem a little vague. Documented where? By whom? Having done some Googling this morning I cannot find this well documented evidence of which you speak, which is odd seeing as it is purportedly so well recorded. I can find plenty of information where things are suspected, or inferred, or alluded to or believed though. I find it interesting that you link to the book "The Enemy Within". Surely the contents are tantamount to stories? Hearsay? The kind of thing you have derided? Have you actually even read that book and know its contents? What makes the authors stories any more credible than those of the people I have met in my life? Or are your searches merely picking out the few reader comments made below and you feel it backs your argument?
lol another long spiel where you have failed again, see above, y?
As for the concept of miners being suspicious of outsiders in their community, I have had several people tell me this was the case. I have also been told the communities ran themselves, metering out support and punishment as it saw fit. Indeed, the stories available online certainly show a very dark side to the mining world, or are you saying that Scargille's Hit Men were a myth?
oooooooooo now YOU have had several people tell you stuff, well I do declare........oh hang on you demanded proof from me, can i please have the same?, and not just rubbish proof that x said y, proper reasonable proof that these seemingly stupid (in my view) claims hold water. Just as an asides though, its not metering as you say, I`ll let you find out the correct word you meant to use
Tell that to the family of David Wilkie. His killers did five years. Not bad for killing someone eh? Strikes me as odd that killing someone is not the intent when dropping a concrete block on their car from atop a bridge, and due to miners walking out on the news of the life sentences, I suspect the reduction in sentences was politically motivated - but I cannot prove it so it surely can't be true. It does seem an odd turn for the justice system to reduce their sentences from life to just 8 (serving 5) years though, especially using such ambiguous terminology for their reasoning. I find it hard to believe that David's death was not a "natural consequence" of having a concrete block dropped on his car. Furthermore, it comes as an odd confession from Kim Howells that he destroyed everything at the local NUM offices when he heard about the killing. Guilty conscience maybe?
You have lost it a bit there imho, attempting to use this isolated incident for what?
It may have been different in other parts of the country though. But just because something is not the norm, or the same elsewhere, does it mean that it becomes false?
Erm dunno why should I?
Quite right, you do a fine job of picking apart your own stance. What is true? That they capitulated or that it hasn't been forgotten that they did so? Or both? Please be more clear, and also more specific on who has not forgotten, and who you refer to when you say "it has not been forgotten". Probably best if you make yourself more clear in future. I wouldn't wan to upset you further by taking your ambiguous writing to imply something that you do not intend.
As for the Nottinghamshire miners, I can't help feeling there is some underlying envy because they had a productive mine and were receiving investment, whereas other areas were not. Perhaps maybe the area you were involved with was suffering yet they were on a gravy train? Indeed the crux of this dispute appears to be that people were not happy that the government wanted to close unprofitable, heavily subsidised mines. Looking through the Hansard website, it becomes clear that the subsidy was not sustainable, especially seeing as our European counterparts were offering double or more subsidy for their own mines. We simply could not compete.
So what if people feel let down by Nottinghamshire miners?, personally I think you and none of us know that the coal industry was unprofitable.
In fact I was working in Sunderland a couple of months ago and got talking to a guy and the mining strike came up. He went practically red in the face and used expletives to describe the Nottingham lot. For him at least, there is a lot of bad blood for both the Nottingham miners and the Tories in general. Having perused some other forums from the north, it does strike me that this viewpoint is likely to be prevalent. But lacking hard evidence to support that claim, it is to be naturally disbelieved (according to your stance).
What a lot of effort to try to prove a really tenuous point. I might add you have no evidence to back up your story, y'know like you demanded of me?
As you appear to be from Scotland, I will ask: do you have a beef with the Nottingham miners because they capitulated?
no
As a pro miner, can you explain why there was never a national ballot of NUM members? From my readings it would appear that the NUM knew they would not get support for a national strike because of the autonomy granted to coal districts to manage their own affairs. Some areas were doing very well for themselves (IE almost breaking even!). Nottinghamshire being one such area. It appears a national ballot would have divided the union, and Scargille couldn't have that now could he? Do you concede this is the reason the ballot was never cast, and do you also concede that the strike actions of the NUM were illegal?
Why would I need to explain about ballot or not ballot?, btw I noticed last time you did it and kind of thought what the heck, but you did it again..........ther is no E in Scargill, y?
No more so than your proclamations that someone is wrong, calling their personal experiences garbage, or your brow-beating style of debate. Asking who do you think you are is quite apt considering your complete lack of courtesy and respect for other peoples stories and opinions. Unless, of course it is a 'story' that backs up your argument, then it is presented as fact. I get a distinct whiff of hypocrisy.
It IS garbage, the tone the implied sweeping generalisations being unneccessarily derogatory to people he couldn't know, the complete absence of fact, the subsequent retraction, the ludicrous claim that apprentices earned £60 a week in 1974, now REMEMBER the onus is on the poster to prove this stuff.
You have not answered my question.
In response to yours, nothing, other than a bit of research to try and qualify these facts you keep telling the forum you have presented. Facts which you keep saying you have brought to the table and yet none of your posts appear to contain any? Here's some information for you - the offer on table for the miners was a 25% increase in average pay over all other industries, but it was refused. That is a huge increase in pay. You could argue that asking for even more was indeed a little 'greedy'.
You are clearly biased, so what, it wasn't me I had nothing to do with pay claims lol
As for the local 'hoo haa' being verified, what would you accept as verification? You seem happy to believe in the secret services being used in an underhanded manner, even though there is no definitive hard evidence that such is the case. So to then say you need Dimple's story verified in order to believe it is surely a contradiction in your stance? Can you explain why you are contradicting yourself, and what your reasoning is for doing so?
Ok so now you have reasonable proof can you admit you were wrong to chastise me?, as for the local hoo ha proof, it wont be, you know that and I know that, because that is exactly what it is, hoo ha.
Fair comment, it does seem to go against the grain of the average national earnings for that time. But then, Stoke, Derby and Nottingham were three areas doing pretty well from mining so it could be construed that they would pay a higher rate, especially if performance bonuses were in use as has been alluded to. It is not such a giant leap of faith is it?
However, it still does not mean what Dimple said was not true as average earnings do not show area specific earnings - ones which would not be reflected in the national average.
Yeah, in the face of the overwhelming likelihood that the poster is wrong, you erm.......... come up with a ludicrous scenario lol
That is not to say what he said was 100% true, but you have hardly tabled unequivocal evidence to refute it.
How is Dimple to prove his point in order to satisfy you? Find a miner from the mid 70's and hope he still has a pay slip? But then you know the difficulty full well, hence why you are baiting him. Far harder for him to prove his experiences than it is for you to refute them based on national averages, would you agree?
No no no, simply don't post contentious things that are clearly dubious, not difficult. Incidentally, seriously if you REALLY want I can PROVE everything I mentioned about my family and the Knockshinnoch disaster, provide contact details and I can do this no prob.
