Being offered a new salary next week - what if I don't agree?

[413x]

Just caught up on this thread.

Can't offer much help. (besides the time of the events I missed the boat anyway)

But good luck.
I've never gotten a significant pay rise within jobs. Only changing jobs. Which has been crazy lucrative!

 

[SideWinder]

Just caught up on this thread.

Can't offer much help. (besides the time of the events I missed the boat anyway)

But good luck.
I've never gotten a significant pay rise within jobs. Only changing jobs. Which has been crazy lucrative!

No worries and thank you.

And ditto...only 2-5% ish.

 

[randomshenans]

...



I've never been this invested since I was routing for UPS to win the international parcel race

 

[SideWinder]

@randomshenans - Tagging you.

Morning,

So it went 'ok' but I feel a bit disappointed, perhaps not properly utilised, I am not sure.

They said they were 'very' surprised and explained that the % increase, which we all know, is sizeable. And they felt it was a very generous offer. They also said they spoke to the recruiter that they found me through. They came back with some constructive feedback which to be honest, seemed a bit random and not truly accurate. Eg the first point was related to reporting where they mentioned a report I created but didn't action it but it was and the Director wanted to resolve it himself with the person. So we did agree communication should increase between us.

It was very open/honest and I explained that due to my experience, @dLockers point, regarding %, but they said I should have mentioned my full experience in the first interview/my salary expectations for the future then..and I am certain it was on my CV/profile from the recruiter as its 10 years in a customer operations team and 'managed the team'..I mean, I needed a job due to the pandemic (can't stress enough how much of an issue this was at the time ) so I don't think I could have argued too strongly in the open interview but perhaps I should have asked for an extra couple of K.

Since the last chat, the new title and responsibilities also changed. There was a 'manager' in the title and this has reduced to 'executive'. They explained that they needed to rethink the structure as they realised they were running before they could walk.

I stress it was a good chat and they felt that our relationship was stronger after our heart to heart and they provided more information on my responsibilities. The role itself isn't changing too much minus more 'authorised' spot checking/organising the team but it is a supervisor role essentially. I am still handling the phone line for the business which at 33, I feel a bit disappointed with as its almost like the amount of good work I have put into it to 'prove myself', has meant I am now doing it for longer.

They stressed they want to grow with me, develop me and provided accurate feedback on what they'd like me to look at so I am happy in that respect.

The salary is remaining the same but with promises of improvement. There is also a 2k living London wage to be added when I move back.

I feel a bit unsure of myself after the chat and starting to wonder if I really am 'that good' at what I do and now I am not even sure what it is I do - just looking throughout the years. I am fantastic with people, can gain rapport very easily, received many compliments about how I am with customers and people and I thought I was strong at team work too but yeah, I have ideas on what to do with the business next.

I stress again the meeting ended on a high point discussing our late Xmas meet-up.

I have learnt a lot from this.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

They stressed they want to grow with me, develop me and provided accurate feedback on what they'd like me to look at so I am happy in that respect.

I've been following this out of interest, and I'm glad you were able to speak to them openly. I think that honesty is most important in a small company.

The bit I've quoted bothers me too - if they want you to grow with them, they need to pay you a wage that enables you to do that, and makes you feel like your lifetime service will be worth that. I have the same gripe in my current company; it feels like they want a lifetime commitment, but I don't feel like the salaries offered reflect that.

 

[Trig]

I feel a bit unsure of myself after the chat and starting to wonder if I really am 'that good' at what I do and now I am not even sure what it is I do.

I have learnt a lot from this.

A bit of self uncertainty is never a bad thing, but remember you got the job for a reason and if they are willing to grow with you as you do with them, you'll be fine...

 

[SideWinder]

@dirtychinchilla - I do want to stress it was very constructive and certainly something unique - credit to the management team. They said they would be able to review and did provide me specific feedback on this. This includes increasing my stature within the team and becoming a 'pillar' so to speak - which is a compliment. I feel like I'll know more in the next 6 months.

@Trig - Of course yeah..I need to keep reminding myself of this. but also

 

[randomshenans]

I feel a bit unsure of myself after the chat and starting to wonder if I really am 'that good' at what I do and now I am not even sure what it is I do - just looking throughout the years. I am fantastic with people, can gain rapport very easily, received many compliments about how I am with customers and people and I thought I was strong at team work too but yeah, I have ideas on what to do with the business next.

For me it sounds like they looked at reasons not to put the jump there because it didn't suit the business. i.e. the structure isn't there for you to be in the title and position you want. Using random report things from ages ago as a reason not to give you what you've asked for seems a real odd one to me. You have done a job like this and more for over 10yrs, you know your ****. It feels like your growth and the busineses growth are not currently aligned at the moment, hence them wanting you to do the phone answering and things like that. I get with small business/ startup types you have to get your hands a bit into everything. Hell, I know that, but it does feel in what you've said that they're trying to make it suit their needs over your growth.

Have faith in your ability. You know what you know. Setup some nice clear KPIs inline with the business outcomes and growth and show them you are helping to drive that growth with numbers. Be confident in yourself and ask for more data, more insight, to allow you to help them, and in turn help you.

 

[Pudney]

@dirtychinchilla - I do want to stress it was very constructive and certainly something unique - credit to the management team. They said they would be able to review and did provide me specific feedback on this. This includes increasing my stature within the team and becoming a 'pillar' so to speak - which is a compliment. I feel like I'll know more in the next 6 months.

@Trig - Of course yeah..I need to keep reminding myself of this. but also

I cannot stress this enough if you decide to stay there. If they're making promises to look at your role in a timeframe make sure they give you proper measurable targets. Becoming a "pillar" for the team is wishy washy and could mean absolutely anything as is "increasing your stature"...

I say this from someone on the other side of the discussion. It is potentially really easy for both sides to go off with different expectations based on what you've said of it so far.

 

[SideWinder]

For me it sounds like they looked at reasons not to put the jump there because it didn't suit the business. i.e. the structure isn't there for you to be in the title and position you want. Using random report things from ages ago as a reason not to give you what you've asked for seems a real odd one to me. You have done a job like this and more for over 10yrs, you know your ****. It feels like your growth and the busineses growth are not currently aligned at the moment, hence them wanting you to do the phone answering and things like that. I get with small business/ startup types you have to get your hands a bit into everything. Hell, I know that, but it does feel in what you've said that they're trying to make it suit their needs over your growth.

Have faith in your ability. You know what you know. Setup some nice clear KPIs inline with the business outcomes and growth and show them you are helping to drive that growth with numbers. Be confident in yourself and ask for more data, more insight, to allow you to help them, and in turn help you.

My previous experience was managing and leading a team of 10 for an 'internal customer' team so around 300+ different 'users' across the week - if that makes sense. I then had a temp role at a different start up for external customers but I know how to handle/resolve tickets if that makes sense - you apologise for the issue, how you will resolve it, reassurance, solution etc.

Yeah I feel a bit more content with the direction they gave me and feel where I need to step in so that is a good thing too. Agreed/noted regarding 'getting stuck in' and of course, no harm in that. I have over 60 Trustpilot reviews in 8 months (all 5* related/caused/mentioning me specifically) which I presented along with quotes so they know I am very talented - along with my senior experience.

Thanks for the confidence boosting words too.

 

[SideWinder]

I cannot stress this enough if you decide to stay there. If they're making promises to look at your role in a timeframe make sure they give you proper measurable targets. Becoming a "pillar" for the team is wishy washy and could mean absolutely anything as is "increasing your stature"...

I say this from someone on the other side of the discussion. It is potentially really easy for both sides to go off with different expectations based on what you've said of it so far.

Thanks Pudney. I am recording everything I do (I did before) to provide evidence so we'll see. There will be more communication regarding expectations and they agreed this was lacking on their side.

 

[Trig]

@Trig - Of course yeah..I need to keep reminding myself of this. but also

It's never a
Being self-aware and not arrogant, overconfident or self-important is never bad thing, ever.
The fact that it appears to have been a very productive 2 way conversation bodes well.

 

[SideWinder]

It's never a
Being self-aware and not arrogant, overconfident or self-important is never bad thing, ever.
The fact that it appears to have been a very productive 2 way conversation bodes well.

Maybe being too tough on myself, not sure. I feel better today and kept making notes during the night on my phone with ideas so that is a good sign I am ready/up for the challenge.

And yes, all ok and certainly could have been very different...!

And once again, to you all, I thoroughly appreciate the advice and hope this has helped others too.

 

[Mujja]

And once again, to you all, I thoroughly appreciate the advice and hope this has helped others too.

Thanks for posting and sharing your experience.

The advice on this sub forum has helped me greatly in the past, I probably wouldn't be where I am now without the advice given in threads like this. e.g. how to ask for more and when it is the right time to move on.

 

[HangTime]

I have over 60 Trustpilot reviews in 8 months (all 5* related/caused/mentioning me specifically) which I presented along with quotes so they know I am very talented

Sometimes voluminous reviews/feedback and specific/niche items can be a double-edged sword in that it can (rightly or wrongly) paint a picture of someone operating at too micro a level. By this I mean you have presumably helped a bunch of people but it could be that to have the job title and salary you crave you would need to spending more time on strategic stuff and the perception (potentially false) from management may be that you are thinking about stuff at a small scale, one of the boots on the ground as it were rather than providing overall direction for the CS operation (kind of inevitable in a small org of course but subconsciously you may be viewed as someone really good at just processing tickets).

 

[SideWinder]

Sometimes voluminous reviews/feedback and specific/niche items can be a double-edged sword in that it can (rightly or wrongly) paint a picture of someone operating at too micro a level. By this I mean you have presumably helped a bunch of people but it could be that to have the job title and salary you crave you would need to spending more time on strategic stuff and the perception (potentially false) from management may be that you are thinking about stuff at a small scale, one of the boots on the ground as it were rather than providing overall direction for the CS operation (kind of inevitable in a small org of course but subconsciously you may be viewed as someone really good at just processing tickets).

Mm thats a fair assessment and a good point. I think, with the size of the business, it could be more 'we need him where he is' too. I was naive to think this could change anytime soon.

 

[HangTime]

They said they were 'very' surprised and explained that the % increase, which we all know, is sizeable. And they felt it was a very generous offer

Sadly in most organisations if you take a job on a poor wage, it is extremely hard to regain parity because of this obsession with viewing pay rises in percentage terms rather than simply assessing what the actual salary should be. If you join earning **** all, then you will forever be earning **** all, because a 'generous' percentage of **** all added to **** all is still **** all. I've learned this the hard way myself. I once had a job where someone was earning 50% more than me with the same job title (admittedly with more experience, so I didn't expect parity), so them giving me a 5% pay rise (when inflation was a lot lower) was still massively disappointing. You never catch up with these meagre pay rises, and whilst 20% might be viewed as "very generous" if you feel you should be earning 40% more than it still a kick in the teeth. By contrast, I once received a 1% pay rise that I was happy with because I felt I was already earning market rates, so I didn't actually need a big raise as I wasn't trying to catch-up with the correct salary.

 

[dowie]

^^^ this, so many companies will look at pay rises in terms of %s of what you're on now - main ways to get a good pay rise are either an internal promotion or jumping ship to a new firm. This option is perhaps working in a startup and having the company grow/your equity/options become more valuable but this option doesn't seem to be present here.

They also said they spoke to the recruiter that they found me through.

[...] they said I should have mentioned my full experience in the first interview/my salary expectations for the future then..and I am certain it was on my CV/profile from the recruiter as its 10 years in a customer operations team and 'managed the team'..I mean, I needed a job due to the pandemic (can't stress enough how much of an issue this was at the time ) so I don't think I could have argued too strongly in the open interview but perhaps I should have asked for an extra couple of K.

It's always worth asking for a bit more after receiving an initial offer for a job, funny they spoke to the recruiter. I guess it is a small firm though, with a large firm they know full well what the market rates are.

The second thing though is you've been there less than a year, sometimes there are clawback deals with recruiters. At the very least it's not necessarily a good thing for the recruiter's relationship with your employer if you leave within a year and perhaps something they might use if/when negotiating future deals with him/her.

Since the last chat, the new title and responsibilities also changed. There was a 'manager' in the title and this has reduced to 'executive'. They explained that they needed to rethink the structure as they realised they were running before they could walk.

Fairly meaningless explanation, job titles cost relatively little unless there are some internal politics re: upsetting others internally.

I stress it was a good chat and they felt that our relationship was stronger after our heart to heart and they provided more information on my responsibilities.

I mean that's nice, it's good to keep things cordial, these things don't need to become overly adversarial. On the other hand they've not really budged at all here it seems, they've been nice with you but it seems they've stuck to their figure for the pay rise, they've knocked you back a bit even re: what you expected re: the job title and I've not seen you mention anything about equity or variable pay (I suggested equity, another poster suggested a future pay rise based on hitting some targets).

Did you mention either of those latter two things?

Ultimately, if you're not happy, then perhaps aim to look for something new over the course of this year, personally, I'd aim to stick it out there for at least a year (but for you that's only 2 more months). At the 30-something level, in London, if you're organised and good at managing relationships, there should be plenty of possible roles out there.

Just one thing to keep in mind, you've got years of experience, you don't *have* to tell a future employer what you currently earn, if you're feeling a bit ambitious then why not look at roles paying 40-something or 50-something... take a punt and see what is out there. You're no longer under the pressure you were under during the pandemic, you can explore other roles now without feeling an urgent need to take them, just see what is out there and feel free to turn down offers.

If you're in London especially then I can't see that it would necessarily be unrealistic to get a rather large pay rise by simply moving at some point later this year.

 

[MissChief]

Sadly in most organisations if you take a job on a poor wage, it is extremely hard to regain parity because of this obsession with viewing pay rises in percentage terms rather than simply assessing what the actual salary should be. If you join earning **** all, then you will forever be earning **** all, because a 'generous' percentage of **** all added to **** all is still **** all. I've learned this the hard way myself. I once had a job where someone was earning 50% more than me with the same job title (admittedly with more experience, so I didn't expect parity), so them giving me a 5% pay rise (when inflation was a lot lower) was still massively disappointing. You never catch up with these meagre pay rises, and whilst 20% might be viewed as "very generous" if you feel you should be earning 40% more than it still a kick in the teeth. By contrast, I once received a 1% pay rise that I was happy with because I felt I was already earning market rates, so I didn't actually need a big raise as I wasn't trying to catch-up with the correct salary.

I've seen this in the past. Lower paid staff got a 3% raise, higher paid staff a 2% raise to 'maintain the same actual monetary wage rise across the board'

 

[randomshenans]

Just one thing to keep in mind, you've got years of experience, you don't *have* to tell a future employer what you currently earn, if you're feeling a bit ambitious then why not look at roles paying 40-something or 50-something... take a punt and see what is out there. You're no longer under the pressure you were under during the pandemic, you can explore other roles now without feeling an urgent need to take them, just see what is out there and feel free to turn down offers.

I'd be doing this. I really would.