Benifets to be a pirate gamer :(

[moralize]
But I wasn't going to buy said game, therefore the sale wasn't lost. :p [/moralize]

:D

It's a hard argument to counter.. when you're young and download games because you can't afford them, then this is actually true. I only hope that, in the future when you have better finances, you pay for your games. And, if you play any one game more than others, that you buy that too, even though it's likely to be obsolete by then.

From a legal point of view its much more than semantics. One will send you to jail, one will not.

You can be jailed for forgery ;)
 
Not copyright infringement hough :p

from wiki, so take with a pinch o' salt:

Wikipedia said:
The penalties for these "copyright infringement" offences depend on the seriousness of the offences:

* before a magistrates' Court, the penalties for distributing unauthorised files are a maximum fine of £5,000 and/or six months imprisonment;
* in the Crown Court, the penalties for distributing unauthorised files are an unlimited fine and/or up to 10 years imprisonment.
 
interesting, always heard of it being a civil matter here. Still with prisons being full I don;t think you get jail unless your selling hundreds of them.

I reckon pirates would get life.. it's the gangster youth's going round with guns that get the slap on the wrist ;)
 
Pirating is civil, distribution is criminal.

Because distribution is a mechanism that can enable others to commit crimes, whereas pirating itself is a one off, non-scalable offense.

How they think of bittorrent I don't know :S Everyone is both a pirate and distributor who uses that for copyrighted material.
 
No, I am advocating that people in *general* should not have to pay for something they are not going to use/experience.

No one is forcing them to buy the game. If they don't think they will get good value for money from it, then don't buy it.

If you have a car, and they say they are going to put an expensive piece into the boot of the car that you probably won't notice any difference, why would you want to pay for that? But you acknowledge that you have a choice, we don't have any choice for video games.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If you don't want the car with the pointless/expensive thing in the boot, you just buy another car.

There is lots of choice with video games - the problem is that piracy is the easy choice ;) Cos it's 'something for nothing' and people know they can get away with it.


This goes far deeper than "piracy". People would pay for a legitimate service that they would regularly use. I pay £8 a month for a WoW subscription that I get hours and hours out of. The old model of "value" for a video game, was 2 hours enjoyment for every £1 spent. But then, I became good at video games and could complete them in < a day...

Again, I'm not sure what your point is.

So you feel like video games don't offer value for money. Then don't buy them.

There are many things in life that don't offer the same value for money to every person.

Its like saying, I used to sit in my car for 2hrs every day, but since I moved home I only use it for 10mins a day.

Or, that you should get some sort of discount at a restaurant if you can't finish your meal, because you're not getting as much as someone who can eat more.

Life is full of things like that.

People pirate games because they know they can get away with it. They can use all sorts of justifications for why they do it, or why it isn't really a big deal, but if they thought they'd get caught then they wouldn't do it.
 
Because distribution is a mechanism that can enable others to commit crimes, whereas pirating itself is a one off, non-scalable offense.

How they think of bittorrent I don't know :S Everyone is both a pirate and distributor who uses that for copyrighted material.

yet people don't profit from it, which makes it even more complicated.




depends what you use it for :)

We're talking about the legalities of piracy in a thread on piracy what the hell do you think we're using it for.
 
No one is forcing them to buy the game. If they don't think they will get good value for money from it, then don't buy it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If you don't want the car with the pointless/expensive thing in the boot, you just buy another car.

There is lots of choice with video games - the problem is that piracy is the easy choice ;) Cos it's 'something for nothing' and people know they can get away with it.

The reason you don't get what I am trying to say is because you see everything as black and white. The car example was an option - you can buy the car without or without the expensive useless option, some people will buy it and some won't. The option is modularity... and this can apply just as easily to games with the correct infrastructure.

What you end up developing is not only a game engine, but an entire platform for your game to be sectioned out to more closely adapting to players' needs. People can't pirate everything because it doesn't work like that. Piracy only works in isolation, just as being a completely horrible person in real life does. People will only accept dealing with you *once* if you are a horrible person - in future they will not accept it again. However, if you are planning on communicating with people in the long term, a more sociable approach will allow everyone to get along. The same applies to piracy - you can steal a *piece* as long as that piece doesn't rely on anything else - and games development falls down because their service relies on delivering their entire content in a single *piece*. However, if the only way to get levels was to download them, level by level, or model by model, or sound effect by sound effect, or whatever, not only would a game be required but an entire *relationship* would be required, and it is the relationship that tests the anti-social activities.

As I said, piracy is such a small, small part of this equation. Piracy can only exist whilst people are willing to fall into that trap. Notice how no-one wants to pirate x-box games when they might lose their Live account - its the relationship that requires contact, not the content.

Of course people will always try to get something for free - thats only human, entirely selfish. However, as anyone with wisdom understands, it is entirely unsustainable, but it does drive us forward in ways that pure game production doesn't... and is more of a sociological test than a technology test.
 

I don't think tying computer games to a larger experience will work to douse piracy..

For example, XBL's equivelant, Games for Windows Live, really hasn't ramped up at all.

Maybe giving some larger benefit to content providers like Steam would entice more users.. for example the Steam Community..

Still, the industry shouldn't *have* to provide an incentive to not pirate. I'm being incredibly idealist here, but people should be made aware that they are harming the games industry as a whole by not supporting it. Maybe some adverts, produced by a "Gaming Confederation", that don't try and scare people into paying per se, but make them aware of the issues it causes, and creates a taboo around piracy.

At the moment, piracy is just one-of-those-things, that most people don't bat an eyelid about, and enforced policing won't stop it. Education will.
 
No, I am advocating that people in *general* should not have to pay for something they are not going to use/experience.

People do experience the game. Just not much of it if they suck. You might as well argue that you should get money off a tennis racquet because you don't win Wimbledon.

Shoseki said:
If you have a car, and they say they are going to put an expensive piece into the boot of the car that you probably won't notice any difference, why would you want to pay for that? But you acknowledge that you have a choice, we don't have any choice for video games.

OK, assuming we were to go along with this insane idea of charging for as much of the game as you play, how do we do that? How do game companies assess how much of the game you play and how much you have to pay them?

Shoseki said:
I do *not* pirate software, games or anything else. I use open source solutions and pay for games (not that I actually enjoy that many games any more). I have ancient consoles (NES/SNES/N64) that are no longer supported and once they die, are dead for good - despite the fact that I have *paid* for a *permanent* access to the game.

Sadly, that's not how it works. If a book falls apart, you don't automatically get a new copy.
 
People do experience the game. Just not much of it if they suck. You might as well argue that you should get money off a tennis racquet because you don't win Wimbledon.

Wimbledon is not the entirety of tennis. You can experience fully tennis without getting to wimbledon standard.

If the developers spent 50% of their development time on the final level, that only 5% of its purchasers' ever got to see, you must agree that is poorly managed. But you still spend 100% of the cost on a game whether you see that end content or not.

OK, assuming we were to go along with this insane idea of charging for as much of the game as you play, how do we do that? How do game companies assess how much of the game you play and how much you have to pay them?

Simple, you section it out. Then if the company starts getting sloppy and puts out crap, people will get tired of it and stop subscribing. Instead of a product, you are providing a service, and this is the key issue. The trick is to make whatever it is you produce *renewable* and not a one off.

Sadly, that's not how it works. If a book falls apart, you don't automatically get a new copy.

True, but once you have steam and registered a copy of the game, you can install it onto any PC when you log in. The same can be done of any media assuming that you have a licence for it.

This is the difference between the old approach and the new. The old approach is entirely random, because if you have a lot of money from a succesful product, you can then use that money to make another product etc. But criticality means that a failed product is a big drain, and there is little feedback from the community etc. However, a more bitesize approach lessens the "immediate" cost, however, pleasing your customers becomes a routine service, that people will not pay if you do not deliver.

Stop looking at "games" "books" and "music" as the medium upon which they are delivered, but as the content itself. And, imho, stop looking at them as a finite, cut and polished, product. Of course all of those could be pirated - but the point is to make them available piece by piece, and only through a strong relationship make them available. There is absolutely no reason why after going into WHSmiths and buying Harry Potter & the bla bla bla, I get on the train with my laptop and carry on reading online - after all, I paid for the rights to read that material, whether it was on paper or whatever, I understand that extra costs are involved with distribution/artist in the book etc, but businesss models can be evolved to accomodate those.

Just because things are happening the way they do at the moment doesn't mean they *always will*. Music used to be 100% medium based, now people download their music and chuck it on whatever they like. If music companies had caught on years ago that this was the way to do it, they could have been minted, providing not only the music itself, but the *added* benefit, such as high quality, album cover, lyrics etc etc that all go together than simply an mp3, which is what most music has been reduced to. The same can be applied to any medium - and coming back for more and more drives up sales, not reduces them.

Books, chapter by chapter. Magazines, article by article. Games, level by level. Music, song by song. Piracy only happens in isolation, as I have said, however, it is pretty difficult to pirate the atmosphere of a live concert, it is difficult to pirate a live server, it is difficult to pirate *quality* and *validity* and extras - all you can do is make a "shallow echo" of the media itself. And anyone who knows anything about software knows it is all about *source*, why isn't this being applied to other types of media?

All we need is some good media based viruses...
 
Wimbledon is not the entirety of tennis. You can experience fully tennis without getting to wimbledon standard.

OK then, completing all the cups is not the entirety of Mario Kart. You can experience fully Mario Kart by racing on Luigi Circuit forever without getting to star standard.

Shoseki said:
If the developers spent 50% of their development time on the final level, that only 5% of its purchasers' ever got to see, you must agree that is poorly managed. But you still spend 100% of the cost on a game whether you see that end content or not.

So? It's up to you to practise until you're good enough to finish it. That's the point of the game.

Shoseki said:
Simple, you section it out. Then if the company starts getting sloppy and puts out crap, people will get tired of it and stop subscribing. Instead of a product, you are providing a service, and this is the key issue. The trick is to make whatever it is you produce *renewable* and not a one off.

You know the other thing that happens with a service? You pay over and over and over. I don't really want to pay for every level of a game. You do realise that if companies could do this they'd just charge more? Look at how much each episode of Half Life 2 has cost, for example.

Shoseki said:
True, but once you have steam and registered a copy of the game, you can install it onto any PC when you log in. The same can be done of any media assuming that you have a licence for it.

Indeed, but you were talking about old games for old consoles. You're not comparing apples to apples. Yes, in the brave new world, you can download heavily encrypted games anywhere you like. That's not what I was responding to though.

Shoseki said:
This is the difference between the old approach and the new. The old approach is entirely random, because if you have a lot of money from a succesful product, you can then use that money to make another product etc. But criticality means that a failed product is a big drain, and there is little feedback from the community etc. However, a more bitesize approach lessens the "immediate" cost, however, pleasing your customers becomes a routine service, that people will not pay if you do not deliver.

I'd hazard that it's not economically viable to produce games in this way. Here's why:

1) The turnaround time is too long. Look at HL2: Episodes. Imagine if the consumer was expected to pay for and download HL2 itself chapter by chapter. Most gamers wouldn't finish it. Not for lack of quality, but for the fact that it would have taken years to get there, playing for an hour every 3 months. HL2 took about 6 years to develop as it was!

2) The initial cost of developing something like the HL2 engine would be enormous. It would be absurd to develop something that you can only charge, say, £5 for and then risk the scenario outlined in point 1. Better to get it all done and out the door in one go.

3) By the time you got the first few bits out the door, your technology would be obsolete and you'd have to start on something new.

4) The development cost would be greater, as the time taken to develop the game would be longer. This cost would be passed on to the consumer, who would be very unlikely to stand for it.

You're hung up on this sort of subscription model. That works for something like WoW because the whole world was in place from the outset. You couldn't charge people £5 a month and build the game while people are playing it. That wouldn't work.

Shoseki said:
Stop looking at "games" "books" and "music" as the medium upon which they are delivered, but as the content itself. And, imho, stop looking at them as a finite, cut and polished, product. Of course all of those could be pirated - but the point is to make them available piece by piece, and only through a strong relationship make them available. There is absolutely no reason why after going into WHSmiths and buying Harry Potter & the bla bla bla, I get on the train with my laptop and carry on reading online - after all, I paid for the rights to read that material, whether it was on paper or whatever, I understand that extra costs are involved with distribution/artist in the book etc, but businesss models can be evolved to accomodate those.

What are you saying, that you want books to be distributed online? Ebooks aren't working. I could point to lengthy discussions on slashdot about why. People don't want books on their computer or an ebook reader. Here's some reasons:

1) They're not very easy on the eyes
2) People can read a book in the bath, on the beach, etc.
3) An ebook reader or laptop is expensive. A single book is not.
4) If an ebook reader or laptop breaks, you are without your library. If a book breaks, you can pick another one to read.
5) Books don't crash.

Shoseki said:
Just because things are happening the way they do at the moment doesn't mean they *always will*. Music used to be 100% medium based, now people download their music and chuck it on whatever they like. If music companies had caught on years ago that this was the way to do it, they could have been minted, providing not only the music itself, but the *added* benefit, such as high quality, album cover, lyrics etc etc that all go together than simply an mp3, which is what most music has been reduced to. The same can be applied to any medium - and coming back for more and more drives up sales, not reduces them.

Again, you're not comparing apples to apples. Music can be produced in small chunks by the nature of the beast. Music is 4 minute chunks of sound. Games used to be 40 hour epics. People will listen to a single artist's work for 4 minutes and then move on. No one wants to play 4 minutes of a game and then move on to another one.

Music is also eminently portable. It makes sense to be able to put it wherever you like. You can't play computer games wherever you want, can you?

Shoseki said:
Books, chapter by chapter. Magazines, article by article. Games, level by level. Music, song by song. Piracy only happens in isolation, as I have said, however, it is pretty difficult to pirate the atmosphere of a live concert, it is difficult to pirate a live server, it is difficult to pirate *quality* and *validity* and extras - all you can do is make a "shallow echo" of the media itself. And anyone who knows anything about software knows it is all about *source*, why isn't this being applied to other types of media?

You're rambling.

Shoseki said:
All we need is some good media based viruses...

And you've lost it.
 
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