Betrayal of 17m march

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billysielu said:
OK well if you guys want to continue not understanding sovereignty that's your call.
If you want to learn something, here's a couple of good books:

Sovereignty: The Origin and Future of a Political Concept (Columbia Studies in Political Thought / Political History) Paperback – 5 May 2015
by Dieter Grimm (Author), Belinda Cooper (Author)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sovereignty-Political-Concept-Columbia-Studies/dp/0231164254/

The Rule of Law Paperback – 24 Feb 2011
by Tom Bingham (Author)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rule-Law-Tom-Bingham/dp/014103453X/
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I know what sovereignty is, I did go to Law School and passed my Constitutional and EU exams.
 
MadMossy said:
And yours isn't?

Things being worse require us to sit back and do nothing after March. Are we really going to do that or will we actually being doing something to ensure that doesn't happen.

Which ever way you voted you can't predict what will happen, you might be able to make an educated guess, but it's still a guess.

Most of the experts that have come out saying doom and gloom in 2016 so far have been wrong on all fronts.
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Most of the predictions by experts have been fairly accurate/correct. It is all doom and gloom, it is all going as predicted.
 
krooton said:
Please do enlighten us, I have yet to see any logical/rational explanation of what sovereignty is, how we don't have it, and why we need it.
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It's too complicated for a tl/dr. It's worth reading the book links I posted a few posts up. If you're against books and want to use Wikipedia, here are some topics to start with (take the time to follow sub-links if there are people you don't know or other concepts you don't understand yet):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_right_of_kings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_Revolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_of_the_governed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty_in_the_United_Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_the_European_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law#United_Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law
 
MadMossy said:
Apparently only a few thousand turned up for the ukip/tommy protest, 15000 marched for the anti ukip/tommy one, all marching against fascism. Nice to know they have a grasp on what it actually is.
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Before those marches only numbered in a couple of dozen. It's several thousand now, there's a real big increase recently
 
It's going to be called off. I sense it now.
The UK will stay and look like a laughing stock to the rest of the world.
 
billysielu said:
OK cool - so what's your opinion of how the lack of the unilateral right to leave the backstop affects the uk's sovereign nation status?
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We have the unilateral right to leave, there is nothing stopping us leaving, we would just be left without any deals on trade and anything else.

Sovereignty is never in question. If that was the case then Brexit would never happen. The EU isn't stopping us to leave, they are just hammering us with bad deals, as they should and would.
 
That Channel 4 show was quite good.
The tory supporting the deal got rekt by the green lady.
The labour guy trying to get a general election got rekt by the green lady.
The green lady rekt herself by proposing a 2nd referendum without Leave as an option.
Rees-Mogg was just chillin'.
Note that they did edit some bits out in the youtube version, so I dunno about other catchup versions.
 
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Raymond Lin said:
We have the unilateral right to leave, there is nothing stopping us leaving, we would just be left without any deals on trade and anything else.

Sovereignty is never in question. If that was the case then Brexit would never happen. The EU isn't stopping us to leave, they are just hammering us with bad deals, as they should and would.
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Exactly, no deal is an option.

It's absolutely ludicrous and the whole country would be absolutely ******, but it's an option.

And if the UK did that, and reneged on their commitments to give the EU 39 billion quid, good luck getting any country to sign a trade deal with you ever again.
 
Raymond Lin said:
We have the unilateral right to leave, there is nothing stopping us leaving, we would just be left without any deals on trade and anything else.

Sovereignty is never in question. If that was the case then Brexit would never happen. The EU isn't stopping us to leave, they are just hammering us with bad deals, as they should and would.
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I get that while we're leaving the EU via article 50 that's true - but in the backstop there's no article 50 - there is no unilateral right to leave the backstop according to the attorney general. So while we're in the backstop "If that was the case then Brexit would never happen" is precisely the problem. Is there a unilateral way of leaving the backstop which you're aware of that has been overlooked?
 
billysielu said:
It's too complicated for a tl/dr. It's worth reading the book links I posted a few posts up. If you're against books and want to use Wikipedia, here are some topics to start with (take the time to follow sub-links if there are people you don't know or other concepts you don't understand yet):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_right_of_kings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_Revolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_of_the_governed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty_in_the_United_Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_the_European_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law#United_Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law
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I know what sovereignty is, it is more about exactly how it relates to the UK and us being in the EU.

Every time someone has given an example of us not having control over something, lets say non-EU immigration levels, it then turns out that we do, and it is just our government being crap at their jobs and scapegoating.

Why can't someone provide a list of issues we have with sovereignty, how the EU impedes us, and the benefits in relation to that should we leave? You'd think the Leave campaign would have a nice, concise way to show this, as it would aid their message.
 
krooton said:
I know what sovereignty is, it is more about exactly how it relates to the UK and us being in the EU.

Every time someone has given an example of us not having control over something, lets say non-EU immigration levels, it then turns out that we do, and it is just our government being crap at their jobs and scapegoating.

Why can't someone provide a list of issues we have with sovereignty, how the EU impedes us, and the benefits in relation to that should we leave? You'd think the Leave campaign would have a nice, concise way to show this, as it would aid their message.
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The issue for me is the arrangement itself, whereby laws are applied to the UK by people we can't vote out at the next general election. For me, this alone is sufficient reason to vote Leave.
- eu law is supreme over uk law
- eu law makers are not elected by uk electorate
- eu law applies directly in the uk via legal conduit (Miller case)
- UK may leave EU via Article 50
- UK may not unilaterally leave backstop

But you asked about specific issues, I'll try some:
- common agricultural policy
- common fisheries policy (I'm from Hull, the fishing industry got fully rekt by the CFP)
- minimum vat rate (15%)
- freedom of movement (impact of population growth on limited uk housing supply / public services)
- inability to make our own trade deals with the rest of the world
- membership fee (opportunity cost)
- prioritisation of protecting the Euro currency
 
In the event of no deal which is what I think it should be now, we already have trade agreements in place under WTO terms, What we might see initially is an increase in some food products but a decrease in others.

Fish for instance will no longer be capped so that could decrease in price, French cheese on the otherhand might increase until a new trade deal is made.

German car prices will increase, you'd be daft to think Germany won't be knocking at the door right away to make a trade deal to ensure one of their biggest markets keeps buying bimmers and mercs.
 
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