Bikers beware, the HGV's "Blind Spot"

Scania · 26 Jan 2011 at 07:18

After a very nasty near miss earlier, I have decided to dig up a thread I posted a while back in Motors.

trucks have massive blind spots, after a brief chat with a biker today who I nearly wiped out, it was apparent that he thought I knew he was where he was when infact I did not.

Almost classic case of "Sorry mate - I didn't see you" if anybody remembers that far back?

The biker in question was trying to pass me on my near side on a large roundabout - as I started to straighten up, thankfully, I saw a reflection of his light on the road behind my trailer!

He was lucky, I had enough space (i.e no on-coming traffic as I exited the roundabout) to swing out wide right & avoid him.

No harm done, we shook hands & went our seperate ways as friends (unusual for some bikers & truckers!

)

So I hope this post is taken as intended, as advice.

I'll be the first to say a lot of truckers are complete ****'s and are indeed a bikers worst enemy!

Blind Spots in & around HGV's.

Here we have a diagram that roughly gives an idea of the field of vision for the average artic driver.

Most of this is fairly self-explanatory - Hopefully it's helpful.

The truck cab & trailer is the blue bit.

The darker the shade of green the harder it is for the (truck) driver to see you-ASSUMING HE'S LOOKING IN THE CORRECT MIRROR!

Red areas are completely blind to the driver.

Note the blind areas directly in front and to the right of the cab. They are big enough to lose someone pushing a bike flat against the truck.

Pic1

Pic2

Pic3

Pic4

Pic5

Pic 1) and pic 2) Truck turning left/on a left hand bend.

Rear of the trailer will be moving closer to the kerb and further to the left than the cab.
The cab will be on the white line or even crossing into the other carriageway depending on how sharp the turn is and how wide the road is.
The Driver is HIGHLY unlikely to be looking in his right hand mirror unless to check if the corner of the trailer is in the right hand lane-and all he'll see in it is the headboard of the trailer if he is.
Predominantly he'll be looking in the left mirror/ahead.

Pic 3) Truck going in a straight line.

This is also the same visibility as a rigid or non-articulated vehicle. Assume the driver is using his mirrors only in the direction of travel in a rigid vehicle.
If the truck is stationary or it's safe to do so-(i.e. assuming no oncoming traffic there needs to be no bends in the road coming up and the truck isn't indicating) then this is the safest time to overtake.

DO NOT UNDERTAKE while it's moving-and if you MUST undertake then only do so if you KNOW the truck isn't going to move before you're past.

DO NOT pull up in the nearside red zone by the cab.The kerbside mirror shows very little.

If the driver is going to miss you,unless you're directly behind the trailer this is where he'll miss you while the truck is stationary.

We'd far rather you pulled up directly in front of us and we could see you.

Pic 4) and pic 5) Truck turning right/on a right hand bend.
Rear of the trailer will be on the white line or even crossing into the other carriageway depending on how sharp the turn is and how wide the road is.

BEWARE the back end of the trailer-if this is a very sharp bend, the rear of the trailer will be moving to the left as it pivots round the axles.
This is a SERIOUS crush hazard and the driver CANNOT SEE IT at all and is unlikely to know the trailer has hit someone.

The Driver will be splitting attention between right mirror(back of trailer),left mirror(Is the headboard going to intrude on the path?) and ahead.

If an articulated lorry isn't stopped in a straight line DON'T undertake. Your chances of being seen are slim if the trailer is bent left and nil if its bent right and you're likely to get crushed as either the cab or trailer will be coming very close to the kerb.

For the same reason, don't ride up behind one in the red zone at speed then pass-the driver may already have committed to a manoeuvre because his mirrors look clear.

I hope the powers that be sticky this for a while.

Cheers. :cool:

Fireskull · 26 Jan 2011 at 07:26

Good post, as you said above a lot of it is pretty obvious and self explanitory, but useful for some who would not know the massive blind spots they have.
I would not ever undertake a HGV your just asking for trouble and I will always go in the outside to overtake on the motorway, were just so small its not worth the risk

Saying that I have never had a problem with HGV's whilst's on the bike other than diesel spilllage!!

Scania · 26 Jan 2011 at 07:35

Fireskull said:
Saying that I have never had a problem with HGV's whilst's on the bike other than diesel spilllage!!

Thats a big issue - I often see drivers "Brimming" their tanks when fuelling at depots, they don't realise the overspill is then dumped at the next roundabout for you guys (I don't ride myself) to deal with.

I try to educate them as to why they should not brim the tanks, some listen, some don't, some are clueless many just careless.

Sagalout · 26 Jan 2011 at 08:36

Good post and insightful, thanks

Griffo · 26 Jan 2011 at 13:19

Good stuff, ta Mr. R!

gillywibble · 26 Jan 2011 at 13:26

Thanks

Mr-White · 26 Jan 2011 at 13:29

Surely this sort of stuff is taught and part of the test ?

MW

Scania · 26 Jan 2011 at 13:55

Mr-White said:
Surely this sort of stuff is taught and part of the test ?

MW

Its something that your instructor drums into you during your HGV training, afaik, its not mentioned to either car drivers or bikers in tests or training - which explains why so many cars & bikes seem to always get into the trucks blind spots - many drivers don't think behind the wheel about what they are doing at the best of times add ignorance to that mix and its a recipie for near disaster like I experienced earlier.

rypt · 26 Jan 2011 at 13:57

R420LA6X2/4MNA said:
Its something that your instructor drums into you during your HGV training, afaik, its not mentioned to either car drivers or bikers in tests or training - which explains why so many cars & bikes seem to always get into the trucks blind spots - many drivers don't think behind the wheel about what they are doing at the best of times add ignorance to that mix and its a recipie for near disaster like I experienced earlier.

Perhaps the haulage companies should get some trucks that are designed to not have huge blind spots, or to fit some cameras ... some buses have side cameras fitted for instance, all it would take was 1 camera on each side and one on the back of the trailer..

kae2 · 26 Jan 2011 at 14:02

Out of interest, why does the diesel come out of the tanks at roundabouts when brimmed?
I thought truck tanks had locking fuel caps?

Scania · 26 Jan 2011 at 14:04

rypt said:
Perhaps the haulage companies should get some trucks that are designed to not have huge blind spots, or to fit some cameras ... some buses have side cameras fitted for instance, all it would take was 1 camera on each side and one on the back of the trailer..

Most busses are not articulated, this mornings incident for example, matey was in the red area in the picture here, to the left of my trailer, roughly in the middle of it's length.

Side facing cameras on the tractor would not pick him up due to the angle of the trailer, and a rear camera would miss him as he's approached me from an exit on my left.

Cameras or not, with a 53ft artic, you still get huge blind spots & peeps need to be aware of them.

Scania · 26 Jan 2011 at 14:10

kae2 said:
Out of interest, why does the diesel come out of the tanks at roundabouts when brimmed?
I thought truck tanks had locking fuel caps?

Yes, they have locking caps, but thats not where the fuel leak comes from.

Most fuel spills on roundabouts & bends come from overflow pipes, on a Scania for example, the overflow is on the top of the tank, if the truck goes around a sharp bend with overfull tanks, the overflow does the rest.

(The black thing on the top of the tank that loops behind is said overflow pipe)

rypt · 26 Jan 2011 at 14:19

If you have a camera on the side of the trailer facing backwards, like on a bus, then you will see a bike in the red triangle if the camera has a slight panoramic view

We require silly rules for cars with respect to what must be visible from mirrors, yet allow trucks to have far worse visibility under the regulations

Fireskull · 26 Jan 2011 at 14:52

I can see your point but it would only work if all truck and trailer manufacturers had a standard camera system otherwise they might go to pick up a trailer and its not a compatible system etc..

But without starting a big check your mirrors discussion it would probably go the same way as mirrors on a car, its 50/50 as to how many I see using theirs on a 20 minute journey to work...

And I agree that Large vehicle blind spots should be something covered under CBT / Test or at least a compulsory section on the theory or something (I know its in the highway code but that don't count

), but because we are taught on quiet roads and are not allowed on motorways we don't really encounter big vehicles

rypt · 26 Jan 2011 at 14:54

Fireskull said:
I can see your point but it would only work if all truck and trailer manufacturers had a standard camera system otherwise they might go to pick up a trailer and its not a compatible system etc..

Well there is that yes, but you bring in a regulation that states "you must be able to see positions, x,y,z from the cab" and leave it up to the industry to find a way to do it (same rules as exist for cars)

Mucky_Pup · 26 Jan 2011 at 14:57

Why did he try to get past? Surely he could have just waited and got past at a later time?

Fireskull · 26 Jan 2011 at 15:00

I reckon a lot of biker truck run ins are caused by impatient / inexperienced riders... But its not just riders I see cars doing it all the time too, people just don't realise the lines trucks have to take to go round roundabout etc..

Felix · 26 Jan 2011 at 15:12

I always go by if I can't see their mirrors, they can't see me.

Morbius · 26 Jan 2011 at 16:29

Even if you're in a car, a lorry will win in a fight. That's a good incentive to give lorries lots of room.

Scania · 26 Jan 2011 at 16:43

rypt said:
Well there is that yes, but you bring in a regulation that states "you must be able to see positions, x,y,z from the cab" and leave it up to the industry to find a way to do it (same rules as exist for cars)

I quite agree, but won't be holding my breath in anticipation of any regulation changes.

Mucky_Pup said:
Why did he try to get past? Surely he could have just waited and got past at a later time?

I don't know, suicidal? just plain nuts? he may have been tired, it was around 05:40....

Perhaps he did not know, perhaps he did not think.

Your guess is as good as mine mate, he said he thought I could see him...

Fireskull said:
I reckon a lot of biker truck run ins are caused by impatient / inexperienced riders... But its not just riders I see cars doing it all the time too, people just don't realise the lines trucks have to take to go round roundabout etc..

This also.

Felix said:
I always go by if I can't see their mirrors, they can't see me.

Morbius said:
Even if you're in a car, a lorry will win in a fight. That's a good incentive to give lorries lots of room.

Both right too.

Cheers for the replys - I was not expecting quite the reaction I have had to this thread, I'm pleased it was taken as intended.