Blair to receive acolade

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Originally posted by dirtydog
Okay why talk to Spain about shared sovereignty then? That would be the slippery slope to giving it back to Spain.

The British people don't want Spain to have shared sovereignty.. 99% of Gibratlarians don't want it..

Why is Blair even talking about it then? Does he forget it is his duty to serve the people?

this happened ages ago and have they got shared sovereignty?
NO they havent. spain wanted gilbraltar back, gilbraltar said "No", Blair said "well.....", then Spain realised they were fighting a losing battle, then I was proved right and you were proved wrong:D

Dont get me wrong I dont want to see us give away our land either but i dont think Blair wanted too
 
Originally posted by Clerkin
this happened ages ago and have they got shared sovereignty?
NO they havent. spain wanted gilbraltar back, gilbraltar said "No", Blair said "well.....", then Spain realised they were fighting a losing battle, then I was proved right and you were proved wrong:D

Dont get me wrong I dont want to see us give away our land either but i dont think Blair wanted too


There has been an angry reaction to the government's announcement that Britain is prepared to share sovereignty of Gibraltar with Spain.
Gibraltarians took to the streets in protest after Foreign Secretary Jack Straw told MPs that London and Madrid had reached broad agreement on the colony's future.

Although there was still no deal to put to the people of Gibraltar its chief minister, Peter Caruana, said any poll on shared sovereignty would be soundly defeated.

The Conservatives accused Mr Straw of trying to bully Gibraltarians into giving up their British citizenship.

And there was even opposition in Spain, which said it still wants complete sovereignty of the Rock - 300 years after it first became British.

'Betrayed'

In a statement condemning the foreign secretary's announcement the Gibraltar Government said: "Mr Straw has politically and openly conceded to Spain the principle of joint sovereignty.

"Mr Straw knows that there is no meaningful level of support in Gibraltar for joint sovereignty."

Gibraltar's First Minister Peter Caruana told the BBC: "I'm feeling like the whole of Gibraltar is feeling - let down, betrayed and frustrated.

"Mr Straw knows that there's more chance of hell freezing over than the people of Gibraltar ever agreeing to a dilution of British sovereignty."

Following Mr Straw's announcement Gibraltarians sounded car horns, blew whistles and beat pots and pans to make clear their opposition to a deal.

Although the 27,000 people on the Rock have a veto on any deal and are overwhelmingly in favour of remaining British, Mr Straw will try to persuade them that shared sovereignty would improve their lives.

Among the benefits would be an end to the border restrictions which guarantee lengthy delays for the many people who cross into Spain every day for their jobs.

'Damaging'

Speaking in the Commons, Mr Straw said Spain was still holding out for a deal under which Gibraltarians would eventually become Spanish citizens.

He assured the Commons he was not prepared to conclude a deal at any price.

But, he stressed, the status quo was damaging Gibraltar and Britain.

"It is damaging Gibraltar because Gibraltar will not thrive while the dispute festers and its people have to put up with everyday disruption.

"The dispute is also damaging to Britain's interests because we are trying to build a strategic alliance with Spain to help deliver the EU we both seek ... "

Confirming his backing for shared sovereignty, Mr Straw said: "Gibraltarians should retain the right to British nationality and gain in addition the right to Spanish nationality as well."

'Dishonourable'

Shadow foreign secretary Michael Ancram said Mr Straw had effectively admitted that joint sovereignty had already been agreed, despite the promise of a referendum.

"This is what we have feared has long been cooked up in the dishonourable talks - a shabby and dishonourable process," Mr Ancram said.

He accused ministers of adopting a "hectoring" tone in an attempt to bully the people of Gibraltar into giving up UK citizenship.

And he said Mr Straw had deliberately chosen to make a statement on the issue on a Friday, when the Commons was sparsely populated.


Blair and Straw acting in this country's interests, don't make me laugh.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2124330.stm
 
Originally posted by dirtydog
Care to expand on that a little :confused:

ok then, Churchill was recently voted the greatest ever Britain. He lead Britain through its toughest ever challenge-WW2. He was a great leader and deserves our respect.

You might be speaking german now if it wasnt for him
 
Originally posted by Clerkin
ok then, Churchill was recently voted the greatest ever Britain. He lead Britain through its toughest ever challenge-WW2. He was a great leader and deserves our respect.

You might be speaking german now if it wasnt for him

Sorry but Churchill doesn't have my respect.. the fact he was voted the greatest ever Briton only demonstrates that most people don't know much about him.
 
Originally posted by Jimmyboyo
Yeah, you might not like Blair, but he's not as bad as Churchill was.

Churchill has done much more for this country than Blair ever has.


dirtydog, I think most people know what a bad personal character he had, and in the debate for the greatest briton, this was brought up a lot, so people watching that didnt know, would probaly know more...
 
Originally posted by dirtydog
Sorry but Churchill doesn't have my respect.. the fact he was voted the greatest ever Briton only demonstrates that most people don't know much about him.
And? It's the people that put him in power, and it's the people that gave him his award. Your statement basically says the people are stupid and don't know what they are doing, so you would prefer a dictatorship ?
Blair is no Churchill, but he has a lot more spine than most of the polititians since WW2.
Having observed some of his speeches/talks recently, it's obvious that the guy is majorly deprived of sleep and is giving everything he can including his own health to the Iraq crisis. Well done, and this is coming from a die-hard conservative voter ! :eek:
 
Originally posted by chenko
Churchill has done much more for this country than Blair ever has.


dirtydog, I think most people know what a bad personal character he had, and in the debate for the greatest briton, this was brought up a lot, so people watching that didnt know, would probaly know more...

In a different world, Churchill would have been tried as a war criminal. Much like Bush or Blair might be ;) In other words, if other leaders had done what any of those three had done (or a fraction of it) they would indeed be indicted for war crimes. Victors' justice always prevails though of course.

Some reading on Churchill...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/raico-churchill1.html
 
Originally posted by dirtydog
In a different world, Churchill would have been tried as a war criminal. Much like Bush or Blair might be ;) In other words, if other leaders had done what any of those three had done (or a fraction of it) they would indeed be indicted for war crimes. Victors' justice always prevails though of course.

Some reading on Churchill...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/raico-churchill1.html

are u anti-britain or pro nazi?
 
Churchill was one of those people who was awful but happened to be the right man for the job at a certain point in history. I can hardly be in awe of Churchill considering he made some comment about "I can see no problem with gassing uncivilised tribes" (In relation to Afghanistan or Iraq I forget which, funny how history repeats eh). On the other hand its quite plausible that without Churchill around during the outbreak of WW2, we might have gone down the total appeaser route and given up. Enough powerful people favoured that option, obviously Churchill wasnt the only one who didnt but he had the right git of a personality to deal with such a bad situation.

Anyway, Blair has busted a gut fighting his impossible position, wow the number of times he must have squirmed at American diplomatic stupidity, I bet Rumsfelds name is muck round these parts. If the medal is for perseverence in diplomacy and spin and selling a war in the constant face of unprecedented oposition, he deserves it.

Its always been my belief that the harder option for Blair and Britain to take would have been oposing or at least not aiding US war plans, there are many reasons for this.

Funnily enough I think that its true that Blair has tried to act in the nations interests, and that this is true whether you are pro or anti war. If you are pro war you believe the stated morally justified reasaons for the war, and if you are cynical like me you suspect that we didnt really have too much choice, all things considered, and seeing the oh so subtle Bush administration style I dont think they are above threats.

Blair getting the award will also give those who accuse him of being a poodle more ammunition ;)

Well whether you love or hate Blair or just dont care, the signs are he's in for a contiued rough ride. Will the post-war squabbles over who runs Iraq etc cause the bags under his eyes to reach the same state as they did during the death of the UN diplomatic route for 2nd resolution? Stay tuned.
 
Originally posted by Clerkin
ok then, Churchill was recently voted the greatest ever Britain. He lead Britain through its toughest ever challenge-WW2. He was a great leader and deserves our respect.

You might be speaking german now if it wasnt for him

Churchill. The man responsible for ok'ing the bombing of Dresden. More bombs were dropped on Dresden in one night than the entire period of the Blitz in London.

A mixture of incendury (to cause fires) and explosive (uhhm, to blow stuff up ;) ) bombs were dropped: The result was destruction outweighing that of the Atomic bomb. The fires were so great that people from two miles away were sucked into the flames. Many who were unlucky enough not to die as a result of the explosive bombs suffocated to death due to the fires taking up the oxygen in the atmosphere.

Our history book generally don't detail that side of things though. They stop with "the bombing of Dresden."

Yes... Churchill is a great man!

edit: There's a post I did in SC many months ago listing all Chruchills quotes if someone with search would like to find it.
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by elbows
I can hardly be in awe of Churchill considering he made some comment about "I can see no problem with gassing uncivilised tribes" (In relation to Afghanistan or Iraq I forget which, funny how history repeats eh).

Churchill was in no doubt that gas could be profitably employed against the Kurds and Iraqis (as well as against other peoples in the Empire): *I do not understand this sqeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes.* Henry Wilson shared Churchills enthusiasm for gas as an instrument of colonial control but the British cabinet was reluctant to sanction the use of a weapon that had caused such misery and revulsion in the First World War. Churchill himself was keen to argue that gas, fired from ground-based guns or dropped from aircraft, would cause *only discomfort or illness, but not death* to dissident tribespeople; but his optimistic view of the effects of gas were mistaken. It was likely that the suggested gas would permanently damage eyesight and *kill children and sickly persons, more especially as the people against whom we intend to use it have no medical knowledge with which to supply antidotes.*

Churchill remained unimpressed by such considerations, arguing that the use of gas, a *scientific expedient,* should not be prevented *by the prejudices of those who do not think clearly*. In the event, gas was used against the Iraqi rebels with excellent moral effect* though gas shells were not dropped from aircraft because of practical difficulties [.....]

Today in 1993 there are still Iraqis and Kurds who remember being bombed and machine-gunned by the RAF in the 1920s. A Kurd from the Korak mountains commented, seventy years after the event: *They were bombing here in the Kaniya Khoran...Sometimes they raided three times a day.* Wing Commander Lewis, then of 30 Squadron (RAF), Iraq, recalls how quite often *one would get a signal that a certain Kurdish village would have to be bombed...*, the RAF pilots being ordered to bomb any Kurd who looked hostile. In the same vein, Squadron-Leader Kendal of 30 Squadron recalls that if the tribespeople were doing something they ought not be doing then you shot them.*

Similarly, Wing-Commander Gale, also of 30 Squadron: *If the Kurds hadn't learned by our example to behave themselves in a civilised way then we had to spank their bottoms. This was done by bombs and guns.

Wing-Commander Sir Arthur Harris (later Bomber Harris, head of wartime Bomber Command) was happy to emphasise that *The Arab and Kurd now know what real bombing means in casualties and damage. Within forty-five minutes a full-size village can be practically wiped out and a third of its inhabitants killed or injured.* It was an easy matter to bomb and machine-gun the tribespeople, because they had no means of defence or retalitation. Iraq and Kurdistan were also useful laboratories for new weapons; devices specifically developed by the Air Ministry for use against tribal villages. The ministry drew up a list of possible weapons, some of them the forerunners of napalm and air-to-ground missiles:

Phosphorus bombs, war rockets, metal crowsfeet [to maim livestock] man-killing shrapnel, liquid fire, delay-action bombs. Many of these weapons were first used in Kurdistan.


http://www.iraqwar.org/chemical.htm
 
Originally posted by Hellsmk2
Churchill. The man responsible for ok'ing the bombing of Dresden. More bombs were dropped on Dresden in one night than the entire period of the Blitz in London.

A mixture of incendury (to cause fires) and explosive (uhhm, to blow stuff up ;) ) bombs were dropped: The result was destruction outweighing that of teh Atomic bomb. The fires were so great that people from two miles away were sucked into the flames. Many who were unlucky enough not to die as a result of the explosive bombs suffocated to death due to the fires taking up the oxygen in the air.

Yes... Churchill is a great man!

WE WERE AT WAR.
 
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