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What you have to say is no more valuable based on whether you were or were not oppressed at some point.
Blame on both sides
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People don't suffer in different ways through their life?
Stalin's regime was brutal. The French resistance was full of nasty people. The Polish resistance was full of nasty people.
And yet we allied with them and that was almost certainly the right decision.
Anti-fa groups would sink into irrelevance if liberals and right-minded conservatives stood up to fascists.
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Cool, does that mean I can ignore all those boring Jewish concentration camp survivors, blathering on about how fascists should always be opposed.
/s
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Yes
I think that is misguided at best, there were plenty of non antifa protestors who stood up and opposed the Nazis at Charlottesville, antifa exists in spite of that. There have always been a rabble of 'black bloc' types at any number of major demos in the UK too, the vast majority of people attending very large demos generally aren't antifa/black bloc/anarchists/communists etc... I don't think there is any particular shortage of people willing to demonstrate against literal Nazis waving Nazi flags.
I wonder if those people wearing brown shirts as part of a militia seeking to use violence and intimidation to impose authoritarian rule are aware of the original people wearing brown shirts as part of a militia seeking to use violence and intimidation to impose authoritarian rule?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung
I know they're fascists, but do they really want to emulate those fascists?
It's only ironic to someone who thinks that the only two possibilities are those two different flavours of authoritarianism and intolerance. Are you that limited or are you just pretending to be as a rhetorical device?
Then you're deliberately remaining ignorant. They're not hidden.
I explicitly did the opposite of that. You're either not reading my post very well or not replying to it honestly. You even quoted the part of my post in which I explicitly seperated modern "liberalism" and what used to be called liberalism.
I've voted Liberal Democrat in every election bar one. My views are what used to be called lberalism. 20 years ago I called myself a liberal without hesitation. 10 years ago I called myself a liberal with a bit of concern about how it might be interpreted. Now I would no more call myself a liberal than I would use a swastika as a symbol of peace and good fortune. Sure, that's the original meaning and technically might still possibly be the "correct" meaning, but it's been so corrupted that it's not the actual meaning any more. My views haven't changed, but liberalism has changed a great deal.
So...I've been voting lib dem for 30 years and I score about in the middle of the left-libertarian quadrant in political tests...and you conclude that I'm a "right wing ultra Conservative".
You're some way from what modern liberalism is and you concluded that I'm a "right wing ultra Conservative" because I think liberalism has been corrupted by illiberal people. Not because of my political views. Just because I said something you disagreed with.
Would you like examples of modern liberals calling people fascists for not being obedient enough? Opposition to sexism and racism? Fascist. Support for free speech? Fascist. Any speech not in line with what modern liberalism regards as goodthink? Fascist. It's like any extremist ideology - the slightest deviation from obedience gets you labelled as the enemy. Different extremist ideologies have different labels, but the meaning is the same.
And choosing the same name as them helps them. So why do it?
No, I didn't. I didn't say that liberals have more power than either of those governments. I didn't say that liberals have more irrational prejudices than either of those governments (although they obviously do).
I, very simply and very clearly, was comparing liberals with their opposite numbers - the fascists on the "right" as opposed to liberals, the fascists on the "left". Also, I didn't say that their prejudices were more irrational. I said that their irrational prejudices are more fashionable.
Maybe you're more of a modern liberal than you pretend to be. You've certainly got the irrational, evidence-free accusations with a dollop of racism down pat. Doubleplusgoodthink, Citizen!
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In the same way, right-wing fascism would sink into irrelevance if right-minded left wingers stood up to modern liberalism, i.e. left-wing fascism of which anti-fa groups are one part...
I think you're wrong. That doesn't seem to be how it works. Extremists rarely care what people who disagree with them think except to hate them and they're may be more hostile to moderates than they are to opposing extremists because they often regard the moderates as traitors of some kind.
Nobody needed to stand up to these particular fascists until antifa created them.
Actual fascists and white supremacists used to be a tiny fringe minority that nobody took seriously. Then antifa popped up, started decking anyone whose politics were to the right of Trotsky, and drove people into the welcoming arms of the alt right.
Exactly, right leaning is now far right !!!
Rubbish, and shows your ignorance of history.
It makes me chuckle when you youngsters think this is all new in your time. There has been fascist groups and anti-fascist groups fighting them for at least the last 40 years - probably longer. The Anti Nazi League started in the 1970's due to a rise in popularity of the far right, this was replaced in the 80's with Anti Fascist Action and then just changed names / merged with other groups sInce then. And on the other side you had The National Front, Combat 18 at al
The friction between these groups ebb and flow as far right ideologies gain and lose traction, usually in line with economic issues it seems as there's a general correlation between economic downturns and rises in far right support
And we've just had the biggest economic crash for the last 10 years, so it's just time to crack some nazi heads again until they fade away for a while
Exactly.Rubbish, and shows your ignorance of history.
It makes me chuckle when you youngsters think this is all new in your time. There has been fascist groups and anti-fascist groups fighting them for at least the last 40 years - probably longer. The Anti Nazi League started in the 1970's due to a rise in popularity of the far right, this was replaced in the 80's with Anti Fascist Action and then just changed names / merged with other groups sInce then. And on the other side you had The National Front, Combat 18 at al
The friction between these groups ebb and flow as far right ideologies gain and lose traction, usually in line with economic issues it seems as there's a general correlation between economic downturns and rises in far right support
And we've just had the biggest economic crash for the last 10 years, so it's just time to crack some nazi heads again until they fade away for a while
It does make me laugh that people can actually try to attribute the resurgence of the far-right on the existence of far-left counter protestors.
Forget all of the socioeconomic reasons that have had an influence, it's simply that a few far-left thugs starting beating up a few far-right thugs and suddenly everyone 'ran into their welcoming arms' to defend them…
It's what is considered far right by Antifa though, the spectrum has got wider, the net has been cast even further. You see people holding up pro life signs getting called fascist, you get people holding up the American flags being called Nazi's. Do you not think it's odd that the majority of the people who make up these rallies are young white people with no life experience. This is not anti fascist anymore, it's a far different beast, the far right is at least consistent. You really need to watch more of these live youtube video's, it's slapping you in the face...
I mean..look at this. Jordan Peterson talk getting shut due to safety concerns, it's absolutely ridiculous, this behaviour shouldn't be defended, it's giving them more oxygen to decide the conversation in our societies.
https://theeyeopener.com/2017/08/ry...-of-free-speech-panel-citing-safety-concerns/
I mean..look at this. Jordan Peterson talk getting shut due to safety concerns, it's absolutely ridiculous, this behaviour shouldn't be defended, it's giving them more oxygen to decide the conversation in our societies.
https://theeyeopener.com/2017/08/ry...-of-free-speech-panel-citing-safety-concerns/
Oh don't get me wrong, a bit like Angillion posted, I'm a proud Liberal with left leanings and i'm embarrassed by the actions of some of these groups (especially from America). All these SJWs being 'offended' at everything, 'cultural appropriament' etc....its bonkers and the pendulum has swung to far their way, which has just led to the more extreme polarisation of both sides, leaving us centrists and moderates rather stranded and with little options but to appear to support either extreme view if you are critical of the other side
But to come back full circle on topic about Charlottesville, these were real life Nazis who turned up and if you were marching with them you have no right to call yourself a moderate right winger and the people protesting them weren't in majority Anti-fa, just the local residents
And to repeat the point of the title, there is no moral equivalence between Nazis, KKK and white supremacists and their counter protesters just because both sides use violence
But to come back full circle on topic about Charlottesville, these were real life Nazis who turned up and if you were marching with them you have no right to call yourself a moderate right winger and the people protesting them weren't in majority Anti-fa, just the local residents
And to repeat the point of the title, there is no moral equivalence between Nazis, KKK and white supremacists and their counter protesters just because both sides use violence
That's why left and right is daft terminology at times, because there's no moral equivalence between Nazis, KKK & white supremacists with conservatives either, just because you have a realistic view that there is a certain hierarchy to life, doesn't mean you espouse it in your day to day life. Treat everyone as you'd like to be treated yourself and all that jazz.
The conversation is being directed like that at the moment though, anyone who oppose's their view is basically a Nazi. It's proper unintelligent with no introspection. Also, just look at the crowd differences, there seems to be a supply and demand issue.
https://twitter.com/TheSwogBlog/status/899032623707828226
This is a perfect example. Look at the likes and retweets difference.
The conversation is being directed like that at the moment though, anyone who oppose's their view is basically a Nazi. It's proper unintelligent with no introspection. Also, just look at the crowd differences, there seems to be a supply and demand issue.
https://twitter.com/TheSwogBlog/status/899032623707828226
This is a perfect example. Look at the likes and retweets difference.
Absolutely, of course not. It's all just a bit to hysterical, probably partly due to social media fanning the flames
And all that jazz
Only by some vocal idiots, generally the rest of us just call Nazis Nazis
But I acknowledge those vocal idiots have got too much traction (due to social media), hence the pendulum swinging analogy, but what we can't do is let the actual Nazis get traction back, especially as they are emboldened due to the Trump election and his administration so far.
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