Boy removed from school in transgender rights row

C.R.A.Z.Y · 12 Sep 2017 at 16:36

d_brennen said:
My daughter (similar age) doesn't get to choose how she dresses for school. Why should any child?

Because forcing people to be someone who they are not can cause serious long-term psychological damage.
The whole narrative around this subject is quite depressing, it's subtly implying that being transgender is wrong and that it's a choice. Very similar to the way people use to speak about homosexuality !

Vonhelmet · 12 Sep 2017 at 16:39

d_brennen said:
My daughter (similar age) doesn't get to choose how she dresses for school. Why should any child?

Is she not allowed to wear trousers as part of her uniform?

exhashdotdot · 12 Sep 2017 at 16:41

C.R.A.Z.Y said:
Because forcing people to be someone who they are not can cause serious long-term psychological damage.
The whole narrative around this subject is quite depressing, it's subtly implying that being transgender is wrong and that it's a choice. Very similar to the way people use to speak about homosexuality !

Is the defining characteristic of femininity wearing dresses?

d_brennen · 12 Sep 2017 at 16:43

C.R.A.Z.Y said:
Because forcing people to be someone who they are not can cause serious long-term psychological damage.
The whole narrative around this subject is quite depressing, it's subtly implying that being transgender is wrong and that it's a choice. Very similar to the way people use to speak about homosexuality !

Clothes = Gender, right, got it. All those girls in trousers must actually be boys.

Vonhelmet said:
Is she not allowed to wear trousers as part of her uniform?

Allowed to yes. She wears what's put out for her in the morning.

exhashdotdot said:
Is the defining characteristic of femininity wearing dresses?

Quite

exhashdotdot · 12 Sep 2017 at 16:47

Regressive Left: Gender is a social construct.

Also Regressive Left: Children can be whatever gender they choose.

No wonder children are confused.

C.R.A.Z.Y · 12 Sep 2017 at 16:49

Nope, but wearing dress's and wanting to be called by a girls name strongly suggests that he is at the very least questioning his sexual identity.
Which isn't surprising considering a study in 2010 found that 38% of transgender individuals recognised something was different before the age of 5.

FishFluff · 12 Sep 2017 at 16:50

exhashdotdot said:
Regressive Left: Gender is a social construct.

Also Regressive Left: Children can be whatever gender they choose.

No wonder children are confused.

What? How are those two statements conflicting?

RDM · 12 Sep 2017 at 16:51

d_brennen said:
My daughter (similar age) doesn't get to choose how she dresses for school. Why should any child?

My daughter got to decide if she wanted to wear a dress, a skirt, trousers or a summer dress at primary school because it was her that was wearing it all day and not me.

Now that she is at high school she is also getting to decide what she wants to wear in the limited choice available to her for the uniform (skirt or trousers, long or short sleeved shirt, cardigan or jumper) because it is her that needs to be in them all day. Surely giving children choice is a way of starting to prepare them for adult life when they have to make lots of decisions for themselves?

exhashdotdot · 12 Sep 2017 at 16:53

C.R.A.Z.Y said:
Nope, but wearing dress's and wanting to be called by a girls name strongly suggests that he is at the very least questioning his sexual identity.

Are certain names and dresses defining characteristics of the femininity?

FishFluff said:
What? How are those two statements conflicting?

If Gender is a social construct (i.e, not real), then choosing a gender doesn't make sense because it's not real.

balky12 · 12 Sep 2017 at 16:59

C.R.A.Z.Y said:
Which isn't surprising considering a study in 2010 found that 38% of transgender individuals recognised something was different before the age of 5.

38% of transgenders knew they were different between the ages of 0 and 4? Pull the other one.

That's a stat I would pull out to prove they are just making stuff up.

Not even started school so I would imagine social interaction outside family would be very limited. Pre-school? Finger painting and playing with toys? A lot of scope to feel 'different' :rolleyes:

d_brennen · 12 Sep 2017 at 16:59

RDM said:
My daughter got to decide if she wanted to wear a dress, a skirt, trousers or a summer dress at primary school because it was her that was wearing it all day and not me.

Now that she is at high school she is also getting to decide what she wants to wear in the limited choice available to her for the uniform (skirt or trousers, long or short sleeved shirt, cardigan or jumper) because it is her that needs to be in them all day. Surely giving children choice is a way of starting to prepare them for adult life when they have to make lots of decisions for themselves?

Within the school uniform. Mine is 5 so hardly the best person to decide with regards to what's appropriate to wear for the given day, she's wear the summer dress complete with white socks in a monsoon given the choice.

5/6 year olds with "gender issues" are more than likely mirroring their parent's problems would you not suspect?

C.R.A.Z.Y · 12 Sep 2017 at 16:59

Of course gender is real.
However it's utterly stupid to assume that because you have certain physical bits that the chemical reactions in the brain are going to align accordingly!

h4rm0ny · 12 Sep 2017 at 17:00

Tunney said:
Who is calling for weighting of SAT scores by race? I can only find reference to this on ultra-conservative conspiracy blogs.

I'm surprised by that. Note, I didn't say "calling for", either. A number of universities in the USA today have applied different admissions criteria (which include SAT scores) according to race. The University of Michigan did. The University of California did. Harvard. Princeton. I know more have, but those are names to hand. Whether this is legal is an issue that has actually reached the Supreme Court of the USA. Fisher v. University of Texas at Austin would be an example case, but it's really not hard to find. What do you consider an "ultra-conservative conspiracy blog"? Is the LA Times acceptable?

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-adv-asian-race-tutoring-20150222-story.html#page=1

Universities have openly stated that they weight admissions by race. The law suits are not about if they do, they're about whether they have the legal right to do so.

Tunney said:
Going by your definition of identity politics, it is indeed an incredibly small movement and the reaction to it is completely overblown.

My definition of Identity Politics is the setting of group identity ahead of individual identity. And that *is* the definition of it. That's what it means. And that encompasses a variety of movements that operate by that principle such as BLM, modern Third Wave Feminism and drives a lot of Left Wing ideological politics. None of this constitutes a "small movement". Have you really never heard the term Identity Politics before now?

diamount · 12 Sep 2017 at 17:01

exhashdotdot said:
If Gender is a social construct (i.e, not real), then choosing a gender doesn't make sense because it's not real.

Yeah, the argument is more than 'gender is a social construct'.

h4rm0ny · 12 Sep 2017 at 17:03

FishFluff said:
What? How are those two statements conflicting?

Essentially because on the one hand, people are saying that gender is an arbitrary thing and people shouldn't be defined by their gender and on the other hand saying that a child's behaviour conforms to a particular gender and their biology should be aligned with that.

EDIT: What exhashdotdot said.

exhashdotdot · 12 Sep 2017 at 17:03

C.R.A.Z.Y said:
Of course gender is real.

Except lots of people debate that, specifically.

C.R.A.Z.Y said:
However it's utterly stupid to assume that because you have certain physical bits that the chemical reactions in the brain are going to align accordingly!

Men and women are physically different.

I wonder if their Cognitive psychology is different too.

Yeah, "utterly stupid" reasoning that is.

Tefal · 12 Sep 2017 at 17:03

exhashdotdot said:
Are certain names and dresses defining characteristics of the femininity?

If Gender is a social construct (i.e, not real), then choosing a gender doesn't make sense because it's not real.

that's not what it means or ties back to your first statement

as you keep asking are dresses feminine and the answer is yes as a society we have decided that dresses are a gender specific type of clothing for females.

this is why people say its a social construct ie what we say is for women or what is for men has no basis in anything other than tradition/what we as a society say.

saying a social construct isnt real is hilarious and sounds like something a Freeman of the land would say, social construct/norms are huge and massivly effect peoples lives.

ie the social idea that homosexuality is wrong meant that up untill about 15 years ago if two 17 year old men had sex they would be going to court .

Tefal · 12 Sep 2017 at 17:04

h4rm0ny said:
Essentially because on the one hand, people are saying that gender is an arbitrary thing and people shouldn't be defined by their gender and on the other hand saying that a child's behaviour conforms to a particular gender and their biology should be aligned with that.

EDIT: What exhashdotdot said.

no they're not.

gender is determined by society hence you can pick.

sex is determined by your genetics, hence you csnt pick

h4rm0ny · 12 Sep 2017 at 17:06

balky12 said:
38% of transgenders knew they were different between the ages of 0 and 4? Pull the other one.

It does sound pretty dubious. But even if allowed, the corollary is that 62% of transgenders didn't know. I.e. it's an argument to postpone any clinical actions because most just don't know. Of course technically that doesn't define the group of false-positives, only false-negatives. But it's hard to imagine there isn't a strong correlation between the two in an area such as this.

C.R.A.Z.Y · 12 Sep 2017 at 17:06

balky12 said:
38% of transgenders knew they were different between the ages of 0 and 4? Pull the other one.

That's a stat I would pull out to prove they are just making stuff up.

Not even started school so I would imagine social interaction outside family would be very limited. Pre-school? Finger painting and playing with toys? A lot of scope to feel 'different'