Branded v Supermarket fuel

telewebby said:
What Auris is it?

if its a hybrid it wont make any difference as it uses a atkinson cycle engine rather than otto

Alex
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How is this relevant ? It still burns fuel.

Also the latest hybrids run both cycles, variable cam timing allows the engine to switch between the two
 
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Simon said:
Hi,

They aren't great photos sorry, but very powerful in real. The brown is the half of the engine that ran basic EN228 specification fuel, Silver is using the Branded fuel with much more additives than the EN228 specification require. The benefit of the cleaner engine is that the intake valves and intake system is much cleaner, and keeping the engine running properly. Engines may get dirty but the average drive wont notice the degradation in performance. Also the emissions are much worse when the engine is running less efficient. This is wy people use the famoud line that they don't notice, no one is good enough to notice these changes but they do exist. Things like high pressure pump failures can be reduced with better fuels.

Onto diesel now, one of the big failure modes is injectors, this is caused by deposits inside the injecter and fuel has a huge impact here. its never mentioned though as Doris 'cant feel any difference' with the cheaper fuels using minimal additive treat rates.

injector foulind also cause issues with increase emissions. its why DPF loading can be higher on vehicles using cheaper fuel. First thing people will do is complain about the car and its DPF blocking, and at the same time they mention they notice no difference in how their engine runs.

Often the better fuels with more additives do impact your car and engine, but don't be so naïve to think that if you don't notice anything then it cant be doing something. Direct injection gasoline is a good example, in markets like China with there fuel. The difference between fuels can result in 40x more PM2.5 emissions, the drive wont notice the difference because they aren't sensitive enough to the small changes in the engine, but the atmosphere certainly will. If this car has a GPF fitted too then the GPF is going to fill up much sooner.
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That’s really interesting stuff to read - thanks a tonne for the info!

So is all supermarket fuel EN228 spec? How about standard branded fuel like Shell or BPs cheapest stuff?
 
Simon said:
Hi,

They aren't great photos sorry, but very powerful in real. The brown is the half of the engine that ran basic EN228 specification fuel, Silver is using the Branded fuel with much more additives than the EN228 specification require. The benefit of the cleaner engine is that the intake valves and intake system is much cleaner, and keeping the engine running properly. Engines may get dirty but the average drive wont notice the degradation in performance. Also the emissions are much worse when the engine is running less efficient. This is wy people use the famoud line that they don't notice, no one is good enough to notice these changes but they do exist. Things like high pressure pump failures can be reduced with better fuels.

Onto diesel now, one of the big failure modes is injectors, this is caused by deposits inside the injecter and fuel has a huge impact here. its never mentioned though as Doris 'cant feel any difference' with the cheaper fuels using minimal additive treat rates.

injector foulind also cause issues with increase emissions. its why DPF loading can be higher on vehicles using cheaper fuel. First thing people will do is complain about the car and its DPF blocking, and at the same time they mention they notice no difference in how their engine runs.

Often the better fuels with more additives do impact your car and engine, but don't be so naïve to think that if you don't notice anything then it cant be doing something. Direct injection gasoline is a good example, in markets like China with there fuel. The difference between fuels can result in 40x more PM2.5 emissions, the drive wont notice the difference because they aren't sensitive enough to the small changes in the engine, but the atmosphere certainly will. If this car has a GPF fitted too then the GPF is going to fill up much sooner.
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Interesting and useful as ever Simon, thanks. Might I ask though, do you have any insight on premium supermarket fuel as opposed to standard?

I have always used premium fuels in my car, usually V-Power. But I have recently started to favour Tesco Momentum-99, purely because V-Power is so much more expensive. Technically it's a supermarket fuel, but I had hoped that being a "premium" fuel might also mean it will be cleaner. Am I wrong in that assumption?
 
MrRockliffe said:
That’s really interesting stuff to read - thanks a tonne for the info!

So is all supermarket fuel EN228 spec? How about standard branded fuel like Shell or BPs cheapest stuff?
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Would always recommend a branded 95 RON versus a supermarket offer based on all the testing beyond the EN228 spec. The claims made on these fuels in the UK especially are also verified by the ASA. They cant just make things up.

The branded 95Ron will still have a good amount of additive. Higher octane often have both more oxygenates to give the octane and extra additives. Often the benefit of high octane fuel is often its long term performance, cleaner engine, cleaner fuel system and injectors, giving better fuel economy. Some cars will run better on it too, my S2000 and M3 are good examples, especially the M3 with ion active knock management.

Tesco 99 I don't know, green energy supply them and its likely at E5 they need some octane boosts on top to hit 99. Couldn't comment on the detergent levels or long term cleanliness.

Often people fill up with a different fuel to their normal and noticed a difference, the impact here can be due to the mixture of fuels rather than a different fuel. Some fuel mixes cause an Azeotrope on Vapour lock pressure which can cause hot starting issues for example.
 
Your fuel pump constantly circulates the fuel in the tank and takes the fuel from the lowest point. Every time its circulated it is filtered and sucks from the bottom fuel is replaced every 2-4weeks. I'm not sure why running it low is relevant, the crap in the tank will settle every time you stop the engine. A modern fuel pump may move 200l/h. That's emptying your tank every 15mins

A fuel tank of an old car that's stored can have water in the tank from condensation, especially older cars with poor tank sealing allowing air into them. obviously water and metal are not ideal.

Obviously my 'no crud' only referred to 99.9999% of cars. I've replaced fuel pumps on cars before and the inside are spotless. not even sure what car is in the video, what's its history? Just seems a really poor video with a single agenda.
 
Simon said:
Hasnt this been done a million times already.#

Get ready for ' ive used it for years and been fine', 'its all the same as it comes out the same fuel terminal' and other things relating RON with quality.
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I don’t think anyone would say it’s all the same, but surely most of us would agree that in a normal, cheap car like an Auris, you’re not going to do any damage to it by using supermarket fuel?
 
Simon said:
Look at the contaminated fuel issue with Tesco
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Hasn't this happened once? Or is it twice now?
I know I was effected about 10 years ago - I was driving around in a Pug 307 that started spluttering and just didn't want to go.
Was taken in, all fuel removed from the system, filters replaced and everything was fine - Tesco sending me a cheque for all the work, plus the cost of the tank of petrol plus £50 goodwill within 2 days of me submitting my claim.

I still buy Tesco fuel, Momentum 99 just seems to offer the best price/performance/mpg combination.
 
Simon said:
Onto diesel now, one of the big failure modes is injectors, this is caused by deposits inside the injecter and fuel has a huge impact here. its never mentioned though as Doris 'cant feel any difference' with the cheaper fuels using minimal additive treat rates.

injector foulind also cause issues with increase emissions. its why DPF loading can be higher on vehicles using cheaper fuel. First thing people will do is complain about the car and its DPF blocking, and at the same time they mention they notice no difference in how their engine runs.
Click to expand...

This is why I always use V-Power Diesel in my 2.0 TDI Golf. Coming up to 102k miles and not had any trouble with injectors/DPF, etc (of course you can never see into the future, but I like to minimise the chance of these faults occurring).

That and the engine does run better, irrespective of what anyone says. I can notice, and I'm the only one driving it. End of :)
 
Simon said:
Would always recommend a branded 95 RON versus a supermarket offer based on all the testing beyond the EN228 spec. The claims made on these fuels in the UK especially are also verified by the ASA. They cant just make things up.

The branded 95Ron will still have a good amount of additive. Higher octane often have both more oxygenates to give the octane and extra additives. Often the benefit of high octane fuel is often its long term performance, cleaner engine, cleaner fuel system and injectors, giving better fuel economy. Some cars will run better on it too, my S2000 and M3 are good examples, especially the M3 with ion active knock management.

Tesco 99 I don't know, green energy supply them and its likely at E5 they need some octane boosts on top to hit 99. Couldn't comment on the detergent levels or long term cleanliness.

Often people fill up with a different fuel to their normal and noticed a difference, the impact here can be due to the mixture of fuels rather than a different fuel. Some fuel mixes cause an Azeotrope on Vapour lock pressure which can cause hot starting issues for example.
Click to expand...

All very interesting stuff

How long does it take for a better “quality” fuel to take effect on cleaning the engine? I.e. would it make sense for me to do 5K cheap and then 5K premium? Or for the little difference in cost, would it just make sense to pay the extra for cheap BP/Shell/Costco?

I noticed in your previous thread about the Audi (S4?) that the difference seemed to be 5K miles - were there any before and after pictures or anything like that?
 
An additional view.
I've run our BMW petrol on both Shell and Tesco fuel, with apparently no real difference.
However, I DID see a difference with my old 2002 MX5. When I first bought it, was hesitant when cold and remained that way for months. After seeing a thread on here from someone who worked within the petroleum industry about the cleaning additives, I tried running the MX5 on Shell on (just their 95). Sure enough, 4 weeks later and the hesitancy was gone. Have run it since on Shell and it's been spot on.
So, seems to be car dependant, at least in my singular experience.
 
ci_newman said:
The other consideration is ethanol content too. Supermarket fuels (in my experience) have a higher ethanol content. For those of us with older cars (my Westfield engine is from 1974!), ethanol = bad. Supermarket fuel is E10 (even their premium stuff). I have to get shell v-power to have a lower E content. (V-power is E5 IIRC).
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Not true. E10 is not used in the UK yet, it is common on the continent.

Currently petrol is only allowed up to 5% ethanol content (E5), whether it is dosed with 5% or not is a different matter.

You're right about it affecting older cars and motorcycles up to early 2000s, the rubber components are the fuel system swell when in contact with ethanol for extended periods.
 
I think it was a problem for some cars much later than that, right up to around 2008-2010 :/

E10 is one of those things which looks greener on paper but probably isn't in the real world. Lower MPG, more engine problems.
 
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