Brazilian Grand Prix 2015, São Paulo - Race 18/19

One of what used to be my favourite tracks of the year reduced to a very boring race. :(

I did flinch when Verstappen thought about going up the inside of Nasr though. I thought the wing was going to come off there before he thought better of it. :D

Verstappen in a competitive car will be a sight to behold.
 
Verstappen is a good driver but at the moment he's no different to the other GP2 drivers that fall into a reasonable car in their early years, who just sling it up the inside and hope for the best (Kobayashi, Perez, Magnessun, etc). It will only work for so long and certainly not against top drivers/cars. Kyvat has impressed me far more.
 
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Verstappen is a good driver but at the moment he's no different to the other GP2 drivers that fall into a reasonable car in their early years, who just sling it up the inside and hope for the best (Kobayashi, Perez, Magnessun, etc). It will only work for so long and certainly not against top drivers/cars. Kyvat has impressed me far more.

All those drivers are/were a fair bit older at the same stage of making their F1 debut though, no?

I think that's what people are impressed with, that he's doing this at 17!
 
Yeah Verstappen will be a force when hes about 23. Reflexes of a youth all the while having years of experience to fall back on. I definitely think he'll be a champion one day.
 
This. Standard 1 side of the coin rant. For example, if you remove DRS, what are you going to implement to replace it? DRS, as much as people love to hate on it, it solves a problem. Without DRS there is no overtaking in F1.

It has introduced, for the most part, completely artificial overtaking. It is near impossible for a driver to defend their position from a faster car now. In the past you'd have slower cars find themselves in a higher position and be able to defend the position with some great defensive driving, nowadays they just wait until they get into a DRS zone and drive past them. Hardly entertaining.

It's solves a problem, yes, but it's pretty poorly done.

It should shut off as soon as the cars get side-by-side :p
 
It amused me that Hamilton is keen to change things when he is second placed in the race, but otherwise has made no comments or recommendations for change.

Personally I would let the drivers make the strategy calls, when they want tyres, adjustments etc.

1) They are the highly paid experts 'in the driving seat'.
2) They should be able to determine the safety of themselves and others on the track.
3) It would introduce an element of the human being back into the equation, good / bad calls etc.

I realise that the 'computer says no' forms the basis of much of the race strategy for the team in addition to their own or F1A rules, but.
 
Torn on that race. When I think about it, it was a good race with some excitement and good overtaking through the pack. But at a quick thought all I'm ever going to remember was the fact that the Mercs started one two and finished in exactly the same order with no fight at all :(
 
It has introduced, for the most part, completely artificial overtaking. It is near impossible for a driver to defend their position from a faster car now. In the past you'd have slower cars find themselves in a higher position and be able to defend the position with some great defensive driving, nowadays they just wait until they get into a DRS zone and drive past them. Hardly entertaining.

It's solves a problem, yes, but it's pretty poorly done.

It should shut off as soon as the cars get side-by-side :p

A slower driver 'defending a position'... So a Trulli Train!?

Yeah, they were great to watch.

Mexico and Brazil showed the issue with following a car quite clearly. Hamilton could easily catch Rosberg at a few tenths a lap, until he got to about a second behind, at which point he fell off the road through lost down force/killed his tyres. DRS is designed to prevent a faster car being stuck behind a slower one. No, they don't get it right all the time, but with no other options being put forward, its the lesser evil.

A wholesale redesign of the rules to bring in a proper solution would allow it to be removed, but even with the perfect opportunity in the 2017 rules, the FIA have seemingly managed to completely screw it up. The talk coming out of the paddock about what's likely to happen is seriously concerning.
 
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Also, what's happening with the 2017 rules? I've had other stuff going on so haven't paid any attention to them other than seeing/hearing people complain about them
 
I think people have a severe case of Rose tinted glasses. There was the occasional race that contained some close racing but thee majority of it was much as it is now. Just with less overtaking.

Take that season, 1981.

First race, US GP West:

1 Australia Alan Jones Williams-Ford 80 1:50:41.33

2 Argentina Carlos Reutemann Williams-Ford 80 + 9.19

3 Brazil Nelson Piquet Brabham-Ford 80 + 34.92

4 United States Mario Andretti Alfa Romeo 80 + 49.31

5 United States Eddie Cheever Tyrrell-Ford 80 + 1:06.70

Everyone else finished off the lead lap.


Race 2, Brazil.

1 Argentina Carlos Reutemann Williams-Ford 62 2:00:23.66

2 Australia Alan Jones Williams-Ford 62 + 4.44

3 Italy Riccardo Patrese Arrows-Ford 62 +1:03.08

4 Switzerland Marc Surer Ensign-Ford 62 + 1:17.03

5 Italy Elio de Angelis Lotus-Ford 62 + 1:26.42

6 France Jacques Laffite Ligier-Matra 62 + 1:26.83


Race 3, Argentina:

1 Brazil Nelson Piquet Brabham-Ford 53 1:34:32.74

2 Argentina Carlos Reutemann Williams-Ford 53 + 26.61

3 France Alain Prost Renault 53 + 49.98

4 Australia Alan Jones Williams-Ford 53 + 1:07.88

5 France René Arnoux Renault 53 + 1:31.85


Race 4, San Marino:

1 Brazil Nelson Piquet Brabham-Ford 60 1:51:23.97

2 Italy Riccardo Patrese Arrows-Ford 60 + 4.58

3 Argentina Carlos Reutemann Williams-Ford 60 + 6.34

4 Mexico Hector Rebaque Brabham-Ford 60 + 22.89

5 France Didier Pironi Ferrari 60 + 25.87

6 Italy Andrea de Cesaris McLaren-Ford 60 + 1:06.61

7 Canada Gilles Villeneuve Ferrari 60 + 1:41.97


Race 5, Belgium:

1 Argentina Carlos Reutemann Williams-Ford 54 1:16:31.61

2 France Jacques Laffite Ligier-Matra 54 + 36.06s

3 United Kingdom Nigel Mansell Lotus-Ford 54 + 43.69s

4 Canada Gilles Villeneuve Ferrari 54 + 47.64s

5 Italy Elio de Angelis Lotus-Ford 54 + 49.20s

6 United States Eddie Cheever Tyrrell-Ford 54 + 52.51s

7 United Kingdom John Watson McLaren-Ford 54 + 1:01.66

8 France Didier Pironi Ferrari 54 + 1:32.04

9 Italy Bruno Giacomelli Alfa Romeo 54 + 1:35.58


Race 6, Monaco:

1 Canada Gilles Villeneuve Ferrari 76 1:54:23.38

2 Australia Alan Jones Williams-Ford 76 + 39.91

3 France Jacques Laffite Ligier-Matra 76 + 1:29.24

Yes, that's right, only the first three cars were on the lead lap. Talk about exciting!

Yes, the Spanish GP was in the video above but that was very much a rare event.

Race 7 French GP, FOUR cars finished on the lead lap
Race 8 British GP, two cars finished on the lead lap. TWO!. And he was FORTY seconds behind! Only 8 cars finished the race!!
Race 9, Grosser Preis von Deutchland, 5 cars with gaps of 11s, 1:04, 1:39 & 1:50 behind the eventual winner.
I could go on but seriously guys, those races everyone remembers are rare in the extreme and anyone that talks about 'the good old days' needs to get their head out of their arse and realise what we have today is far, far more entertaining than what has happened in the past.
 
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There may have been loads of action in any of those races that just looking at the race results wouldn't show.
Cars back then didn't have the reliability they have now, so some of those huge gaps may have been caused by the lack of finishers.
 
Also, what's happening with the 2017 rules? I've had other stuff going on so haven't paid any attention to them other than seeing/hearing people complain about them

The potential was there for the FIA to redefine the aero rules to solve a lot of the problem with F1. They started the conversation and we all got excited.

There was talk of fat rear tyres, heavily reduced aero, wider (more draggy) cars, a removal of the flat floor rule (so ground effect would be allowed), heavily simplified front wings, revised nose rules, active suspension, and all sorts of other cool stuff. So something like a modern interpretation of this:

Nigel-Mansell-in-his-1992-008.jpg


But... as talks have progressed and the FIA has realized it doesn't actually hold the power in its own sport, and the teams are all out for themselves and no one else, it now sounds like what were going to get is the same width cars, narrower but more complex front wings, additional aero on body, lower and wider rear wings, not much change in tyres, refueling, and no or reduced ERS systems. So basically.... this:

kova_mcla_ista_2008_470313.jpg


Progress, ey.... :(:(:(:mad::mad::mad:
 
/me shudders at the prospect of mid-late-2000 era cars.

There may have been loads of action in any of those races that just looking at the race results wouldn't show.
Cars back then didn't have the reliability they have now, so some of those huge gaps may have been caused by the lack of finishers.

** Warning, this post has drunkenmaster levels of mindless wanderings included **

Indeed, it was the dawning of the turbo era for F1 and the engines which went on to dominate F1 were going through their period of pain against the decade and a half old DFVs. Imagine the 2015 Honda against a V8 now and you'd have some idea... but if the regulations were as they were in 1981, who would have bet against Honda or perhaps Renault going on to dominate against the V8s a few years from now? Sort reliability out and they would decimate a field of NA cars - that's how it was in the 80s.

Mind, it's sad that that's the position in which Honda and to a degree Renault are in in 2015.

It's a shame the sport is so processional now. The commentators were getting excited when a lapped car appeared in front of the leaders on Sunday, which was mid-2000s level of desperation. While the sport remains as clinical as it is, it will continue like this. If you remove the bumpy, demanding tracks and engineers figure out the best way to utilise tyres (that won't change with more durable tyres, so don't get your hopes up), then you'll get a processional sport with little in the way of excitement - throw in a dominant car and you will get tedium. Remove the potential for mistakes and you remove much of the what makes motorsport exciting.

The issue is it's not just F1 that's like this. Even the BTCC is like this now - less levels of technical expertise of course, but they've followed the same principles and now you've got cars which are so nailed that following cars struggle to overtake the top drivers, and that's in a sport where it's somehow become acceptable to nudge drivers out of the way!

Only LMS is flourishing at the moment, but have we've almost lucked in to that. The open regulations in LMP1 have worked for once and we've got 3 different manufacturers taking 3 different approaches to end up near enough in the same place (hopefully soon to be 4 and even more wacky if Nissan can get there Nismo madmobile up there). You have to think that if Audi and Porsche remain and Toyota throw resources at the project then all 3 would eventually end up taking the same approach at some point and we'd end up with the consistency and reliability which has made F1 being quite boring. And there's no way we'll keep Audi, Porsche and Toyota for the next decade, and we will likely get a boring single manufacturer dominated series at some point. I suppose the trump card LMS has is multiple classes on track, which always allows for fun.

Even MotoGP is neutered and bland now compared to road racing, with its engine maps, traction control and billiard smooth tracks (more understandable with bikes of course). It's more 'slidy' than F1, but it's all done in a very controlled way. I enjoyed the championship battle this season, but the races haven't grabbed me for a while now.

Now the cars are so good it's hard to see how any motorsport is going to improve in the next few decades. Oversteer in the 70s meant enormous power-slides (helped by bias ply tyres and engines which were relatively weedy in terms of torque and power compared to most modern engines) and now it's case of can't slide, won't slide - throughout motorsport.

I suppose the only motorsport category which has any resemblance to its former self is rallying, and of course since we lost the mighty group B cars (for good reason of course) that's been an increasingly damp squib too. I'd struggle to name more than a few drivers now in anything but local rally, and I bet I'm not the only one.
 
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Try watching lorry racing.

The problem with F1 at the moment is not so much that the race at the front is boring, but that the race down the field is also boring.

And DRS makes the appearance of a back-marker very relevant as the first-placed car can then get a DRS boost.
 
Lapped cars giving DRS is such a huge flaw I don't know why they allow it. Traffic should be an opportunity for the guy behind to be creative (everyone remembers Mika's great improvisation with Schu and a backmarker at Spa), but all too often the car infront gets DRS and any chance of closing the gap is all but nullified.
 
Have barely watched a race this season and can honestly say I don't miss F1 at all.

There just isn't enough wheel to wheel action that gets me excited anymore.

Just boring DRS overtakes because the cars are too advanced that they can't overtake properly anymore.

On top of that when one team dominates it's even worse.

The only solution is too increase the percentage of mechanical grip to aero grip like people have suggested.
 
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