Building Control Advice

[LOAM]

Depending on what door is on at the moment it might be possible to make them fr30 anyway, if they are solid Victorian ones it might be possible to just route a smoke seal into the door lining and fit a perko door closer in the middle.

 

[Raumarik]

Mark - I have firedoors in my house and the sound insulation is superb, couldn't recommend them more. Every door in my house except one is a fire door and it's by far the quietest house I've ever been in. I know it's an additional expense but at least it's cheaper than excavation and does have it's benefits other than simply getting past building control.

 

[dodgem]

You can go to private companies for sign off under the building regs. you dont have to use the local authority

Building control officers are there to ensure you meet the regs. if you can demonstrate that then they can't refuse to pass it, unfortunately doc b, which deals with fire is quite open to interpretation in some areas, particularly since the regulatory reform (fire safety) order 2005 came in.

This is, imo, the most accurate reply. As said, BCOs are there to enforce regulations, not to pass or deny plans based on their own preferences. If you can show that you are adhering to part B then that's pretty much it - your pita BCO would have to demonstrate that you are not meeting the regs. It sounds like he's one of those people that like to make a point about being right, but ultimately it isn't his decision, it's down to what is written in the regs!

Also, although it would cost, you can go to an independent body. My brother in law is a partner in an architectural firm, and they use a firm that does building control. These people work with him, not against him, and it is them that sign off the works, nothing at all to do with the council building control.

Good luck though!!

 

[LOAM]

We to mainly use AI these days purely because Notts BC dept is so under staffed it can't cope.

There are a couple of things I don't quite get though, firstly because a basement constitutes a part b implication then it would have had to have been done on full plans not a notice. Therefore plans must have been vetted and he must have raised this escape issue potentially before work was even started in the usual request for amendments.

 

[markwilliams82]

The fire doors will probably be used as a last resort if I can't resolve the issue with the coal chute. As like you've all said it would be a cheaper alternative to carrying out a large excavation for an exterior stair well.

As I've said, I've asked the building controller who is dealing with my conversion for explanations as to why he can't accept my proposed solution. Hopefully he'll come back to me today with explanations and I can find out whether its just his personal opinion or if the solutions does fail to meet certain regulations. I just find this hard to believe if so many conversion companies use this solution of a cat ladder.

As for the private companies who sign work off, how do you find out about them? I've never heard of any before. I always thought it was down to the building control of the council.

According to the company who did the work and the planning portal website (http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/basements/) basements which are converted don't require planning permission unless significant changes are made although rules are being looked at which might mean future work requires planning permission.

as soon as I get a response today i'll post an update

 

[the_r_sole]

mark, planning permission is completely different than a building warrant, being exempt from one has no bearing on the other, however, having said that, i would imagine the building control officer would have said this during his first inspection...
i deal with these lovely people on a daily basis, and it's perfectly reasonable to go over the guy's head and speak to his boss for a solution, they can be persuaded that one of their officers is interpreting the regs differently.
Another thing to point out is that the regs are only guidance and things can be relaxed where they are not reasonably practible, i.e. if digging up half your garden is the only option!
you should only need one fire door at the entrance to the basement on the ground floor, i thought (but don't have the regs in front of me) that a ladder would be suitable as an alternative means of escape - assuming you don't have any high level windows.
some bc officers go a bit mad with power, you have to get a copy of the regs, tell the guy he's talking nonsense and speak to his boss!

 

[DM]

mark, planning permission is completely different than a building warrant, being exempt from one has no bearing on the other, however, having said that, i would imagine the building control officer would have said this during his first inspection...
i deal with these lovely people on a daily basis, and it's perfectly reasonable to go over the guy's head and speak to his boss for a solution, they can be persuaded that one of their officers is interpreting the regs differently.
Another thing to point out is that the regs are only guidance and things can be relaxed where they are not reasonably practible, i.e. if digging up half your garden is the only option!
you should only need one fire door at the entrance to the basement on the ground floor, i thought (but don't have the regs in front of me) that a ladder would be suitable as an alternative means of escape - assuming you don't have any high level windows.
some bc officers go a bit mad with power, you have to get a copy of the regs, tell the guy he's talking nonsense and speak to his boss!

Thats never worked for me, most of my projects are Bromley council and they are a nightmare, solidarity is strong in that office, no running to the boss there

 

[the_r_sole]

Thats never worked for me, most of my projects are Bromley council and they are a nightmare, solidarity is strong in that office, no running to the boss there

fair enough, i think it depends on the individual office, although my thinking when speaking to the boss is that i'm not going to be the first person to question what a certain officer says, so maybe the boss will take note!
(only used as a last resort tho) will try and be nice for as long as possible otherwise they can come back to bite you, for example, a nice bc officer held back issuing an amendment to warrant for almost a year, pretty sure it was just for badness!

 

[markwilliams82]

yeah that's true, I've read mixed today. I've emailed other cellar conversion specialists etc to get more opinions and they've all come back and said that you can convert a chute into an escape route as they've done it previously you just need to check with the local BC. Seems silly really, if the company are happy to do it, why are different councils going to react differently to it.

One company has come back with the advice of...involve the controller to make them think it was there idea and they'll be happy

not heard a thing of the bloke today, hopefully i will tomorrow. If not i might have to ring the office and speak to his boss. During the initial visit he did say the chute could be used, because I remember him saying if we didnt use that as an exit we'd need to use fire doors at the top of the stairs to cut off rooms and provide safe exit routes.

 

[JBuk]

As for the private companies who sign work off, how do you find out about them? I've never heard of any before. I always thought it was down to the building control of the council.

I was under the impression that BC has to be involved with any work and only they can sign it off, any third party involvement, ie building companies ,etc still have to get BC to sign off their work

 

[dodgem]

I was under the impression that BC has to be involved with any work and only they can sign it off, any third party involvement, ie building companies ,etc still have to get BC to sign off their work

That's incorrect. It's simply a matter of ensuring that works conform to the various parts of the building regs. A similar situation, for example, is getting arrested, and having the choice of a lawyer assigned to you by the authorities, or employing your own lawyer privately. They are both interpreting the law and ensuring that it is followed. The same goes for building regs.... you need somebody qualified in interpreting the regs, but it doesn't need to be someone employed by the local authority.

 

[markwilliams82]

Where can I find these indepent building controllers?

How does it work with the council though? I mean the council know the work is going ahead so what would happen if an independent controller would accept an idea they wouldnt?

I've got the electrian coming on monday to fit a mains powered fire alarm in the area as required so I want to get something resolved before then so I can make any adjustments to the electricians work if required.
If the BC are insistent I cant use the chute unless i excavate for full stairs, i'll just install fire doors.

 

[DM]

That's incorrect. It's simply a matter of ensuring that works conform to the various parts of the building regs. A similar situation, for example, is getting arrested, and having the choice of a lawyer assigned to you by the authorities, or employing your own lawyer privately. They are both interpreting the law and ensuring that it is followed. The same goes for building regs.... you need somebody qualified in interpreting the regs, but it doesn't need to be someone employed by the local authority.

Are you talking about UK/England rules here? So who is it you are saying is privately qualified to sign these things off?

So let me get this right, you are saying that there is a private body of people that if satisfied that things conform they can sign off? And that the council BC can then not veto what has been signed?

 

[JBuk]

That's incorrect. It's simply a matter of ensuring that works conform to the various parts of the building regs. A similar situation, for example, is getting arrested, and having the choice of a lawyer assigned to you by the authorities, or employing your own lawyer privately. They are both interpreting the law and ensuring that it is followed. The same goes for building regs.... you need somebody qualified in interpreting the regs, but it doesn't need to be someone employed by the local authority.

That isn't what I understood when I spoke to my local council, they told me I had to put in a building notice or a full plan and that a BC inspector would check the site every so often, I was led to believe that going through the council and getting their approval was a requirement.

 

[LOAM]

Are you talking about UK/England rules here? So who is it you are saying is privately qualified to sign these things off?

So let me get this right, you are saying that there is a private body of people that if satisfied that things conform they can sign off? And that the council BC can then not veto what has been signed?

you can use approved inspectors in the UK (there is about 60 of them operating in the UK), they still have to notify the local authority that work is going to be undertaken but inspection and issues of final completion certificate is done by the approved inspectors.

More info here

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/Planning/BuildingRegulations/DG_10014170

Approved inspectors' building control service

When you use an approved inspector, they will take responsibility for checking the plans and inspection of your building work. The procedure requires you and the approved inspector jointly to notify your local authority of your intended building work on what is called an 'initial notice'.

The approved inspector will tell you what plans and information they need to check that the proposed work will comply with the Building Regulations.

If you ask, the approved inspector will, once satisfied, issue a plans certificate which will confirm that the plans of your proposed building work show compliance with the Building Regulations. When the work is complete the approved inspector should issue a final certificate to the local authority to say that the work referred to in the initial notice is complete and that the inspector has carried out their inspections. If the approved inspector is not satisfied that the work complies, then they cannot give the final certificate.

To find an approved inspector visit Association of Consultant Approved Inspectors (ACAI) website below.
http://www.approvedinspectors.org.uk/home.asp

and here

http://www.cic.org.uk/services/AIregister.shtml
http://www.cic.org.uk/services/approved_inspectors.shtml

 

[DM]

Thats very interesting if the council BC cannot get its oar in once they have signed off.

 

[markwilliams82]

Definetly, I've just been on the website and found a company of inspectors in Birmingham who I've emailed all my details to so I can see what there opinion is. Wait and see what they say.

I'm hoping to get some kind of update on this tomorrow, even by my BC or by calling his manager to discuss, or from the independent company.

I just can't see why I've got such an issue with putting a cat ladder into a already excavated coal chute, and using an external light of some kind to light up the area when dark and to install a velux window above for H&S and keep security tight

Even more annoying when the BC never mentioned any issues on his initial visit when the chute was discussed, and even on the 2nd visit when the cellar company discussed with him the chute and putting a step in there, no issues were raised then.

 

[LOAM]

Even more annoying when the BC never mentioned any issues on his initial visit when the chute was discussed, and even on the 2nd visit when the cellar company discussed with him the chute and putting a step in there, no issues were raised then.

were any drawings submitted that showed this to be the alternative exit point, that were subsequently conditionally approved or outright approved ?


For the record, paragraph 2.13 of section B1 of Part B Building Regulations simply states

2.13 Because of the risk that a single stairway may be blocked by smoke from fire in the basement or ground storey, if the basement contains a habitable room, the dwelling house should be provided with either;

a. an external door or window suitable for egress from the basement (see paragraph 2.8); or

B a protected stairway leading from the basement to a final exit.

paragraph 2.8 relates to the permissible opening size

 

[markwilliams82]

no real plans on what would be done with the chute, only that it would be excavated and turned into a fire exit as per the plan of work below which was drawn up and submitted by the cellar company

 

[LOAM]

its key to know if they were subbmitted to the local aithority and what correspondance was returned from the BCO.

if (and it is an if) he has approved those plans, or indeed conditionally approved them with no mention of revising the alternative exit route, I would be (and indeed I have done recently on a staircase) asking him to explain why this wasn't picked up on vetting stage and why it has been left until building work has been completed to bring it to your attention.
On that basis I would be telling him that we have built it to the approved drawings, there's little they can actually do if they have approved the submitted information.

I've had a similar situation recently whereby a staircase which admittedly didn't comply has had to be "let off" due to it being clearly shown like that on the approved drawings from day one, amendment requests made no mention of it, and it wasn't picked up until final inspection.