Building Control Advice

I'll have to speak with the cellar conversion company to see if they can confirm, but I do seem to recall the plans were sent in with the building notice form when I sent it in with payment to building control.

if thats the case, i'll mention that tomorrow when I speak with either by BC or his manager.

I do remember his first visit as i was at home for it to show him around, and i showed him the chute and we spoke about it and he told me an alternative if i didnt proceed with the chute would be to install fire doors. obviously he came back for a 2nd visit afterwards but the cellar conversion company were here for that.

thanks for your advice, I'll have a dig through paperwork and call the cellar company to discuss with them if they sent in any plans and to confirm what was said to them during the 2nd visit.
 
it starts to get "grey" if it were done on a Notice as technically they don't approve anything (as you don't have to submit anything). Its all done on an inspection method.

I am surprised that they allowed a notice application to be used though tbh as anything with a part B implication needs to be done on full plans.

One final question, is there a window between the room and the chute ? is the chute actually outside of the building or is it inside with a velux over the top of it ?

See how you get on tomorrow and report back, find out his exact reasoning behind rejecting it, it will either be the size of the window into the escape area, the height that needs to be climbed or perhaps the actual size of the chute itself. Be civil though with him at all times, despite him digging his heals in he does have your best interests at heart, he doesn't want you or your family being trapped down there in the event of a fire. Its not all lost though, I'm sure it can be resolved.
 
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mmm fair enough, it all does sound rather grey and dodgy.

I know the cellar conversion and the council emailed me part completed applications to sign and fully complete and i'm 90% sure I sent off the plan of work as well so that i had no issues and they had all relevant paper work (just in case) so not to delay the work and I know i showed the plans to the inspector on his first visit to view.

the window installed is a fire escape window which opens in two ways (tilted part open for ventilation and full open for escape) which is installed in the wall between the room and the chute.

the chute is actually outside of the wall with just a cover over it at the moment until i install a velux window over the chute once the cat ladder is installed (if i get permission) see image below for layout of chute in comparison to the house. the dotted line is the original position of the chute, but the solid line is the position since its excavation

 
bare in mind the velux would also need to an escape velux also. It sort of makes your actual escape window redundant tbh.

I'm seeing it tanked (new lath like you have in the basement), escape velux over the top then some funky staggered storage boxes that double up as stairs ;)
 
yeah, i thought that. i just dont want it open to the elements or to any local chancers who want to try and break in so would rather have security at the top too

I'm going to try the cellar company tomorrow, get all details regarding...would plans of been sent, would they of had any kind of confirmation before starting and what was said about the chute during the visits. then i'll ring the bc manager to try and get some approval and make my point and find out why it wouldnt be acceptable and why if there is a problem it wasn't highlighted earlier when things were first discussed, shown or after the initial visit.
 
if you run into confusion, my email is in trust, drop me a line if you want. if it comes to it I don't mind speaking to the BCO for you.
 
markwilliams82 said:
yeah, i thought that. i just dont want it open to the elements or to any local chancers who want to try and break in so would rather have security at the top too
Click to expand...

I think what LOAM was getting at was that there seems little point in having a low level window between the room and the chute. You have a Velux going in at the top of the chute, so why not have the chute as part of the living space? Obviously you would need to insulate the chute walls in this case.

It's a bit hard to tell, but from what you're saying it does sound like this was done on a building notice, which means that nothing is pre-passed as it were, but instead is assessed as it is built.

LOAM sounds like he really knows what he's talking about. My own experience is purely from designing and speccing my new kitchen extension myself (my architect brother-in-law has been an invaluable help though!). Even though mine is just a single storey extension, i have made a full plans submission because i don't want any nasty surprises, and hence i have looked in some depth into BC ;)

Good luck with getting your approval for the chute escape route, keep us updated please.
 
I've been reading about the notice and full plan submission, and all the requirements for the full plan submissions seem to of been met as I've read for the full plan way of things the BC will need details on materials used etc which they've requested and has been submitted.

We did think of having the chute as part of the room but from the original plans a window was planned for in there and has recently been installed as the last piece of work from the cellar company

I've got some work to get done this morning, so by the time I get all of that out the way I'll give BC and the cellar company a call about 10am to get all the information and discuss the chute * fingers crossed *
 
Well I've just had my response from BC from the email I sent a couple of days ago asking why they can't accept the solution;

The rationale of our decision is as follows:

1* Your basement conversion requires an alternative means of escape, or alternatively a protected escape route, you have indicated that you will provide the former (approved document B1, clause 2.13)

2* B1, clause 2.8 states “Any window provided for emergency egress purposes… should enable the person escaping to reach a place free from danger from fire”.

3* Clearly this is not possible without the provision of some means of moving from the level of the bottom of the light well to street level.

4* Approved document K gives guidance “for people moving between different levels in or about the building”. We know of no other guidance for this situation which is commonly accepted by building control bodies within Worcestershire or elsewhere.

We are therefore looking for an approved document K compliant solution.


All of this seems quite silly to me and not very clear.
In my understanding;

1* The chute will act as an alternative escape route incase of fire
2* The window is a fire escape window which will allow people access to a ladder/steps which will take people to safety
3* The solution of a cat ladder does enable a method of moving from the bottom of the chute to street level

In the approved document K the only reference to basements I could see was a section regarding guards/barriers around basement access/light wells. This will obviously be ok because of the velux window that will be installed on surface level. This will prevent anyone falling down the light well.

Also when looking in approved document K at the guidance to fixed ladders it states a fixed handrail needs to be present on both sides.

So working on all of this information, there is no need for the chute not to be acceptable if my understanding is correct. If I fit a fixed ladder with hand rails on either side, with a light in there to enable better visibility and install a velux window to provide a guard/barrier to prevent falling. I don't see any issues.

What do you think?
 
The key part of their email is that they are "looking for an approved document K compliant solution". I'm not familiar with part k, but i have just had a quick look at it, and the first problem i see is in section 1.25:

"A fixed ladder should have fixed handrails on both sides and should only be installed for access in a loft conversion and then only when there is not enough space without alteration to the existing space to accommodate a stair..."

So according to part K, a fixed ladder is only suitable for access to loft conversions, not as a means of escape from a basement :( You should put this to the cellar company, and see if they have a way to get round it. The regs seem quite clear in this case so they must have encountered it before?

The only glimmer of light that i see is that it may be as simple as having to state that the fixed ladder will have hand rails both sides. I don't know if that fact has been made clear before now?...

As i said though - i'm no expert, so there could well be a cunning way out of this dilemma.
 
LOL no guidence, ask him if he would consider BS4211 as an alternative approach, But first decide how would you feel about a companion ladder ? it will fill the space up, but If he will accept it, you could get it done in timber and it would look nice.

BS4211.jpg

BS4211_1.jpg


Needs to be between 65 and 75 degrees in pitch, BS4211 also covers fixed ladders @ 90 degrees and the hoops dont start until 2500mm up, however it advises that anything less than 3000mm should be done via companion ladder, IE as above, I would be minded to ignore all the gumf at the top top though tbh, esp as you are putting a velux up there


If he wont entertain that, then your left with asking him to relax it, doing it, appealing it or whacking FD30S doors at GF level.
 
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well I didnt get back to him this afternoon, I thought I'd leave it the night and get a reply back to him tomorrow.

dodgem - i've searched the regulations and came across what you said about the fixed ladders are only for loft conversions, but it seems there is no definite regulation regarding basements so from my point of view I can't see how they can refuse point blank a viable solution such as a step up or cat ladder.

as for whats been mentioned previously, i've not stated anything about hand rails. might be worth considering though.



LOAM - a ladder like that seems ok. my only worry is that it would take up more room than the bc's recommendation of the alternating tread stair. or am i thinking of it wrong. I worked out today, using the regulation dimensions that to accomodate stairs I'd need the coal chute excavated to a length of approx 1.5metres which would create a rather large opening and mean a large velux window would be required and would put the top of the stairs only a short distance from the edge of our property and public walkway? is that correct or am I working it out wrong based on dimensions of 220m per riser and step and coal chute height of 1.5 metres
 
The BC has suggested the use of an alternating tread stair?

Part K section 1.23:
"Alternating tread stairs should only be installed in one or more straight flights for a loft conversion and then only when there is not enough space to accommodate a stair..."

Now to my way of thinking, if he accepts an alternating tread stair then he should also accept a fixed ladder in the same situation... However, it may not be wise to point this out as he might withdraw the use of alternating treads.

With an alternating tread stair, you effectively half the length of the stairs. Normal stairs have a rise and going of 220mm per step, whereas alternating tread stairs have a rise of 220mm per step, and a going of 220mm every two steps. So to go up 1500mm, you only go forwards 750mm (roughly).
 
Indeed, it is a bit barmy that hes ok with Alt tread but not a fixed ladder. I've yet to climb an alt tread without nearly breaking my neck.
 
Never read that part of the regs.

Although I did read a part about people getting used to the alt tread the more they're used! basically saying they're not comfy to use and users need to become used to them, whereas a ladder...everyone knows how to use lol

What the BC said was "We would be looking for something like the alternating tread stair shown in part K" It is tempting to quote the building regs about the alt tread stairs only being used for a loft conversion, and refer to the section about fixed ladders only being used for loft conversion. but its true what you said, he may change his mind on that as well then. although if i get him to confirm on the phone that he wants the alt tread stair, i can refer to the comment and say a fixed ladder is recommended under the same circumstances so surely that will be acceptable too as long as I have hand rails either side.

I had a look on that website and they have some good budget wood kit stairs on there which would be ideal considering the amount it would be used. I could then stain it and it would then look ok. based on the sketches they've got...for a 13 riser set which has a height of 2500mm, it would need an depth of 1460mm. so if I needed a height of 1500mm I'd guess I'd need a depth of approx 750-800mm but I can enquire to confirm
 
I've typed a draft email to send my BC in the morning, what do you think?


I've followed on from your email from the 1st November where you suggested the solution of an alternating tread stair case in the excavated coal chute / light well of our cellar conversion and suggested I look into appropriate handrails and guarding the area around the light well on the surface level.

I used this as a basis of discussion with a builder and an architect so that we could come up with a tried and tested solution that you would find both acceptable and also be an approved document K compliant solution whilst also being a solution that has been used on numerous occasions in similar scenarios and ultimately providing a means of safe escape to the surface level infront of the property.

Based on your advice of an alternating tread stair case which is mentioned in the approved document K section 1.23 as a solution to an area that has been converted or has limited space where a full stair case is not suitable, we were also able to come up with another solution of a fixed ladder with hand rails either side as this is also mentioned in the approved document K (section 1.25) with the same definition as the alternating tread stair case; a solution for areas of limited space where a full stair case is not suitable and in converted areas.

We felt that this solution would enable any person to reach a place that is free from danger in case of fire with a means of exit that everyone would be accustomed to.

We also discussed installing an exterior light in the excavated coal chute / light well that could be turned on in the case of an emergency to enable better visibility in the event of escape. Also to guard around the area we discussed two alternatives, firstly installing an emergency escape compliant Velux window on the surface level or alternatively erecting a barrier at an agreed height around the opening of the chute / light well.

Following these discussions and the solutions I've put forward I hope you are able to come back with some positive feedback

On another note, I am getting our electrician to installed a mains powered fire alarm as agreed on your initial visit. Knowing the layout of our property on the ground floor, where would you like this to be installed? Would you simply like us to replace our current alarm which is located at the top of the cellar stairs between living room and kitchen?

I look forward to your response
 
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