Button 'targeted by Ferrari'

[JRS]

It's pretty obvious over just about most races especially in the dry Hamilton is faster than Button

And yet in the 26 races that the pairing has been in place at McLaren the difference between them is just 10 points IIRC (yep, Hamilton beat JB by 26pts last year, JB leading Hamilton by 16 so far this year).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not really disagreeing with you - of course Hamilton is quicker. He's also better able to adapt when the car requires a bit of throwing around rather than smooth, fluid driving. But none of that matters one bit if he keeps crashing into people

 

[dannyjo22]

And yet in the 26 races that the pairing has been in place at McLaren the difference between them is just 10 points IIRC (yep, Hamilton beat JB by 26pts last year, JB leading Hamilton by 16 so far this year).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not really disagreeing with you - of course Hamilton is quicker. He's also better able to adapt when the car requires a bit of throwing around rather than smooth, fluid driving. But none of that matters one bit if he keeps crashing into people

I agree and I've been a big fan of Button for years, but in my head over my heart I know he will never beat him in straight fight anything more than 4 times over 16 races.

His qualifying just isn't up to it, since the 2nd half of the season with Brawn he doesn't seem to get the better of his team mates consistently enough.

I would love him to score more and out qualify Lewis more often but when you look at Lewis he just gets more out of the car in all circumstances. He makes more mistakes but in a situation like Vettel and the Red Bull this year he wouldn't be pushing so hard. It that scenario I can never see Button troubling him.

 

[JRS]

I would love him to score more and out qualify Lewis more often but when you look at Lewis he just gets more out of the car in all circumstances. He makes more mistakes but in a situation like Vettel and the Red Bull this year he wouldn't be pushing so hard. It that scenario I can never see Button troubling him.

Oh, definitely. If Lewis had been in that Red Bull at the start of the season, there is no-one on the grid who could challenge him. Not Button, not Vettel, not a single person.

 

[arknor]

I'm sure every driver on the grid has a little bit of his heart that wants to drive for Ferrari one day.

If the opportunity came up his head may say it's the wrong time but he's not got that many more years racing so who knows.

doubt everyone does crap team unless your their favorite i doubt many of the top drivers would go their to play second fiddle

 

[mmj_uk]

I can certainly see why Ferrari want him, judging by his pace versus Hamilton he wouldn't be as fast Alonso but can win occasionally and is consistently pushing for the podium. Whether Jenson would admit it or not he's the perfect number two driver which is why him and Hamilton at McLaren works so well.

And yet in the 26 races that the pairing has been in place at McLaren the difference between them is just 10 points IIRC (yep, Hamilton beat JB by 26pts last year, JB leading Hamilton by 16 so far this year).

The difference is Hamilton dropped loads of points making silly errors towards the end of last season, he did so because he was in with a real shout of winning the title and the pressure got to him. Button on the other just trundled along picking up points without ever looking like winning the title.

 

[JRS]

The difference is Hamilton dropped loads of points making silly errors towards the end of last season, he did so because he was in with a real shout of winning the title and the pressure got to him. Button on the other just trundled along picking up points without ever looking like winning the title.

Points scored by Hamilton in last five races of 2010: 58
Points scored by Button in last five races of 2010: 49

(I picked 5 races because that makes it the 4th quarter of the season, rounded up to the nearest whole race)

Now, I ain't no arithmetical genius, but even I can figure out that 58 is more than 49. Want to try that one again?

 

[smr]

I can certainly see why Ferrari want him, judging by his pace versus Hamilton he wouldn't be as fast Alonso but can win occasionally and is consistently pushing for the podium. Whether Jenson would admit it or not he's the perfect number two driver which is why him and Hamilton at McLaren works so well.

Don't see how you can say Jenson is a number 2 driver at Mclaren. He finished only just behind Lewis last season (not bad considering Lewis has already been in the team and won a WDC with them). Jenson's first season, on the other hand

Secondly, who's 2nd in the WDC right now? That's right... Jenson Button.

Everything within McLaren says that they have their drivers on "equal footing"... yes sometimes no means yes in F1 but I believe that to be the case.

If anything, and if there is a number 1/2 status within every F1 team right now, then McLaren would be mad to say that Lewis is their #1 driver.

His on-track antics are embarrassing and I've read recently somewhere that the team are getting quite p*****d off with all his bling mates he seems to keep filling the garage with. Lewis has gone all showbiz and better cut out of it soon and start becoming a racing driver again imo.

 

[smr]

I'll add to that...

Lewis was [luckily for him] born into McLaren, nurtured from a young age like a chick in the nest, taken under Ron's wing and given an incredible racing team / car to compete with from the outset.

Jenson, on the other hand, had to start at a lesser team (at the time) and then joined a few crap teams before getting a decent car at Brawn (and then destroying everyone on the grid with it and finally unleashing to the world his raw and unstoppable talent).

It's like playing a Championship Season in F1 2010 - I'll start at Mclaren/Ferrari and you start with Renault/Williams and we'll see who does better in the first season. Odds are in favour of me

.......aaaaand that's exactly how it was with Jenson and Lewis - yes Lewis is exciting to watch and he's definitely more aggressive with the car, but a lot of people seem to think that automatically makes him a better racer.

At the moment I think he's more like a Bull in a China shop.

 

[SKILL]

On his day Hamilton is better than Button, quite easily, I'm not sure how close it would be if both of them were having a good race (Button seems to frequently complain about balance/tyres) but I still think Hamilton would have the edge.

However his days are infuriatingly infrequent (as someone who enjoys watching him race, and his never quit attitude), and Button is quick enough that if/when Hamilton does something stupid Button is more than capable of doing well/winning.

At McLaren Button isn't a number 2 driver, but at Ferrari he would be and the way it ends up being at McLaren shows that Button would be perfect in that role, whether he wants to or not is more important.

Personally I hope he doesn't go to Ferrari, I'm a McLaren fan and Button has impressed me over the past couple of seasons, I'm most definitely not a Ferrari fan

 

[mmj_uk]

Points scored by Hamilton in last five races of 2010: 58
Points scored by Button in last five races of 2010: 49

(I picked 5 races because that makes it the 4th quarter of the season, rounded up to the nearest whole race)

Now, I ain't no arithmetical genius, but even I can figure out that 58 is more than 49. Want to try that one again?

That's exactly my point, Hamilton got 9pts more in the final 5 races despite him only actually finishing 4 of them, if you count the last 6 races which also includes Hamilton's Monza retirement then it looks even better for Button.

If you count the last 4 races of the season where neither driver retired:

Lewis Hamilton 58
Jenson Button 37

But the specific period I was referring to:

Before Monza:
Lewis Hamilton 182
Jenson Button 147

After Monza and Singapore:
Lewis Hamilton 182
Jenson Button 177

You could pick out a lot of moments during the season where both of the drivers dropped points, Button's failure in Monaco and Vettel hitting him in Spa, Hamilton in Hungary with gearbox failure and Spain where his wheel dropped off when in 2nd, the time when (I think it was last year) the FIAlonso penalised Hamilton for passing the safety car.

The difference is though if Hamilton had got a decent finish in in either Monza or Singapore (or both) he could easily have gone on to win the championship, whereas the best Button could hope for up until that point was to catch his team mate. Button just doesn't have the qualifying (and more often than not race pace) to challenge the likes of Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel etc, he does a damn good job though of consistently finishing the races to the best of his ability.

 

[JRS]

That's exactly my point, Hamilton got 9pts more in the final 5 races despite him only actually finishing 4 of them, if you count the last 6 races which also includes Hamilton's Monza retirement then it looks even better for Button.

And if you count seven then it swings way back towards Hamilton....that would be why I picked the sensible (or so I thought) range of the final quarter of the season. Apparently, you weren't striving for the same level of neatness!

If you count the last 4 races of the season where neither driver retired:

Lewis Hamilton 58
Jenson Button 37

Yep, that would be my point. You said "Hamilton dropped loads of points making silly errors towards the end of last season" answering my post that said the Hamilton-Button partnership showed just a 10 point difference so far. I pointed out that, in the final quarter of the 2010 season (as in "towards the end of last season"), what you were saying was utter balls

But the specific period I was referring to:

Before Monza:
Lewis Hamilton 182
Jenson Button 147

After Monza and Singapore:
Lewis Hamilton 182
Jenson Button 177

Well, hell - if you're going to move the goalposts to that particular point of the season where we still had four races to go (as in 762.87 racing miles, not even counting practice and qually)....no way I can counter that really is there? Next time, would you mind making it clear what "towards the end of last season" means on your world?

 

[MissChief]

JB will not leave McLaren. Mclaren will take up their option on him for next year and I suspect he'll sign a much improved contract for 2013 and maybe even 2014 as well. IMO he'd be crazy to go to Ferrari as he'd always be second fiddle to The Whinging Spaniard despite also being a World Champion. Mclaren can't see anyone being free of Button's standard any time soon either.

I LOVE that Mclaren have an all british lineup and hamilton is one of my favourite drivers but is has been slowly dropping in my estimation this season. he's making stupid mistakes and should be making more of the decisions himself in conjunction with the team, not letting the team make them for him. he's no Rookie anymore and needs to stand up a bit more. he also needs to stop making stupid mistakes. At the moment I'm rooting for Jenson more than Lewis, not least because Jenson won me £75 thanks to winning in Canada!

 

[Duke]

Well, hell - if you're going to move the goalposts to that particular point of the season where we still had four races to go (as in 762.87 racing miles, not even counting practice and qually)....no way I can counter that really is there? Next time, would you mind making it clear what "towards the end of last season" means on your world?

 

[Deleted member 651465]

They need a solid No 2.

 

[Lunatic Dreyfus]

Why on Earth would Jenson want to go to Ferrari and play second fiddle to Ferdy? He seems to getting his feet under the table quite nicely at McLaren and in my eyes supplanting Hamilton as team favourite, especially now that the Ronster is long gone from the F1 part of the business.

For sure () Ferrari need a proper 2nd driver, but who fancies being the next Rubens Barrichello... As for McLaren, I think Lewis will go before Button, but where is the question.


Edit: Just had an image of Kobayashi driving for Ferrari. Ah man, it'd be epic

 

[Dave M]

He'd consider Ferrari because it's Ferrari - the red car is a powerful lure. He's going to retire sooner rather than later and the 'what if' isn't something you want.

Mclaren would be mad to let him go though.

 

[sunama]

...hamilton is one of my favourite drivers but is has been slowly dropping in my estimation this season. he's making stupid mistakes ...

Easy there tiger.

In 2007, Hamilton finished on identical points to Alonso (who is widely regarded as the best driver in F1.
In 2009, he finished ahead of his team mate.
In 2010, he finished ahead of his World Champion team-mate. Only Alonso and the ridiculously fast RBR cars could beat him.

As shown last year, by finishing in the top 4, Hamilton showed that he could only be beaten by the RBR cars and Alonso. Nobody else could beat him over the course of a full season.

I assure you, this is the same Hamilton we are seeing in 2011. Right now, he is suffering from bad luck and a dip in form. No driver can maintain top form for the whole season. As the season progresses, I expect to see both Alonso and Hamilton move up the WDC table.

At present, I would only rate Alonso ahead of Hamilton and I think Vettel and Hamilton are about the same (Vettel has really raised his game this year).

As long as Hamilton drives as he did in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010, he will confirm his position as one of the best drivers in F1.

And with regards to why Button would move to Ferrari...because its Ferrari and also the big salary.

As Button's retirement looms, he will look to finish his career on a high salary (this applies to most sports people).

 

[dannyjo22]

I expect to see hamilton and Alonso move up the table because like all drivers Vettel will start to protect that lead and stop pushing so hard and bring the car home.

When he has 8 wins on the board it will become pointless going balls out for a win against hamilton when he will only be dropping 5 points.

Vettel is nowhere near the speed of Hamilton, the car is but if the roles where reversed I doubt vettel would be anywhere near pulling off the feats of Hamilton. He would make even more mistakes as well.

Personally I don't think Vettel has raised his game, Webbers just seems to have no game this year.

Still you can't argue that Vettel is not getting the job done and doing the best he can with the equipment available. I'd love to see him paired with Hamilton.

Buttons old fella is apparently a life long huge Ferrari fan. Yet if I was Button I'd still wait to see what Lewis does. If Lewis jumps ship Button might get another shot at a title.

 

[mmj_uk]

And if you count seven then it swings way back towards Hamilton....that would be why I picked the sensible (or so I thought) range of the final quarter of the season. Apparently, you weren't striving for the same level of neatness!

Yep, that would be my point. You said "Hamilton dropped loads of points making silly errors towards the end of last season" answering my post that said the Hamilton-Button partnership showed just a 10 point difference so far. I pointed out that, in the final quarter of the 2010 season (as in "towards the end of last season"), what you were saying was utter balls

but again the simple fact is that despite his eventual points tally Button never looked like winning the championship last year, he was and still is consistently slower than Hamilton in both qualifying and race trim, except perhaps when it's wet (where most of his wins have come from) or the occasional dry race.

Which of these descriptions best fits a number 2 drivers role?

Driver A: Makes numerous errors pushing for race wins but still manages to finish only 16pts off the eventual championship winner. Consistently qualifies in the top 3.

Driver B: Picks up points consistently but never looked like winning the championship due to a lack of raw pace throughout the season. Consistently qualifies slower than his team mate.

Well, hell - if you're going to move the goalposts to that particular point of the season where we still had four races to go (as in 762.87 racing miles, not even counting practice and qually)....no way I can counter that really is there? Next time, would you mind making it clear what "towards the end of last season" means on your world?

I'm talking about the reality last year where Hamilton came close to winning the championship if not for two silly incidents in back to back races, the same reality where (up until those two races) the supposed 'number one' driver Button never even looked like catching Hamilton let alone winning the championship. I'm sure that even if you added up all of the points Button lost due to his retirements last season his points tally would still barely even match Hamilton's eventual tally let alone be enough to have won the title.

How did Button do in todays qualifying btw? McLaren might treat him as an equal but until he finds some more pace to match Hamilton he's fulfilling the role of a number two driver perfectly.

 

[MissChief]

Easy there tiger.

In 2007, Hamilton finished on identical points to Alonso (who is widely regarded as the best driver in F1.
In 2009, he finished ahead of his team mate.
In 2010, he finished ahead of his World Champion team-mate. Only Alonso and the ridiculously fast RBR cars could beat him.

As shown last year, by finishing in the top 4, Hamilton showed that he could only be beaten by the RBR cars and Alonso. Nobody else could beat him over the course of a full season.

I assure you, this is the same Hamilton we are seeing in 2011. Right now, he is suffering from bad luck and a dip in form. No driver can maintain top form for the whole season. As the season progresses, I expect to see both Alonso and Hamilton move up the WDC table.

At present, I would only rate Alonso ahead of Hamilton and I think Vettel and Hamilton are about the same (Vettel has really raised his game this year).

As long as Hamilton drives as he did in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010, he will confirm his position as one of the best drivers in F1.

And with regards to why Button would move to Ferrari...because its Ferrari and also the big salary.

As Button's retirement looms, he will look to finish his career on a high salary (this applies to most sports people).

I did say this season for that reason. I just think he should have more say in his own race. He still seems to put his trust in the team, but while that's no bad thing, he should be a bit more forceful with what he wants.