Buy 8700K Now Or Wait ?

prjwebb · 25 Apr 2018 at 20:48

String said:
Then in what way was it limiting your CPU?

Another interesting thing to pay attention to, look at the combined score values in this thread. Notice how every Ryzen score is significantly lower than the intel equivalent.
https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/firestrike-standard-bench-thread.18665940/

iakhtar · 25 Apr 2018 at 22:08

Something is really weird with the firestrike combined on ryzen, it shouldn't be choking that badly, even old haswell i5's outperform the ryzens there.

prjwebb · 25 Apr 2018 at 22:44

iakhtar said:
Something is really weird with the firestrike combined on ryzen, it shouldn't be choking that badly, even old haswell i5's outperform the ryzens there.

Yep, but you never see it talked about any where.

Dirk Diggler · 26 Apr 2018 at 08:16

prjwebb said:
Yep, but you never see it talked about any where.

Has this been resolved with 2700x?

8 Pack · 26 Apr 2018 at 08:18

8700k now makes perfect sense for gaming...

prjwebb · 26 Apr 2018 at 08:24

String said:
Has this been resolved with 2700x?

Not that I have seen.

Dirk Diggler · 26 Apr 2018 at 09:20

prjwebb said:
Not that I have seen.

That's my concern. It edges me toward the 8700k, and the ITX monoblock appeals to me a lot. But the security issues put me off Intel.

I don't think it's a straightforward choice right now.

Radox-0 · 26 Apr 2018 at 10:25

AndreiD said:
The TIM they use isn't 'toothpaste', it's actually a really good quality Corning polymer TIM optimised for long term stability. And if you watch the recent der8auer video you'll noticed that delidding a Ryzen and using liquid metal will also give you a decrease in thermals, about 4C.
Not going to defend Intel not using solder on their HEDT parts, they should at least solder those, but unless you try to push the chip to the limits, the stock polymer TIM is good enough and should have reliability benefits in the long term compared to soldered chips. For stock and a moderate overclock it should be fine, if you want to push the chip to its limits then delidding is must.

Do you have any further details in regards to the long term impact on Solder, I am happy to learn here. Primary reason I ask is Sandylake CPU's soldered are going strong, Intel still used soldered on X99, well after moving to TIM on maintream so would have thought if there is an issue with longevity Intel would have applied TIM to X99 if that was the rationale to applying the to 3xxx CPU's. Similarly AMD is still using solder so am curious what the issue is with solder and what the exact impact would be. I get one of the reasons I have heard floated around is due avoid the expansion and contraction's that may happen to solder over a long period of time, but seems there is a lack of information around that or any actual detailed analysis (I can see, but happy to be proven wrong) when plenty of CPU's use solder and still going strong and new generations are coming out with the stuff.

Personally I consider it toothpaste when I delid my 8700k or 7980XE and see a 15-20 degree drop in temperatures, even at stock settings with basic stress testing. If there is a 4 degree delta between solder and a delid as shown in der8auers video, I still think I would be happy with the 10-15 degree drop (factoring in the delta) solder would provide. Given the K series CPUs are unlocked and in part intended to be overclocked along with HEDT, one would think they are good applications to use solder method.

AndreiD · 26 Apr 2018 at 10:53

The Material Optimization and Reliability Characterization of an Indium-Solder Thermal Interface Material for CPU Packaging 2006 research summary straight from Intel's materials science department. Apparently indium based solder has a reliability impact on smaller dies since constant thermal cycling will cause the solder sheet to crack and with it the die it sits on top of. But that's for smaller dies, there's still not much info on why they don't solder their big HEDT dies.
I reckon they probably improve their margins slightly by using polymer TIM and it's probably also due to their push to be environmentally friendly (they most likely get tax breaks since polymer TIM is indeed a lot more environmentally friendly than indium solder).

The issue with the big Skylake-X chips is if you do AVX stress testing on them and the motherboards don't apply the TDP limits properly at stock, a lot of X299 motherboards apparently don't. The AVX throughput of those chips is massive (akin to 4x Zen cores per Skylake-X core).

On that note, der8auer desoldered and delided old 6950X and 5960X chips and still got 8~10C better temps with liquid metal, mainly due to the solder sheet being thick on those (probably for reliability reasons). Their polymer TIM Skylake-X being only ~10C off their soldered counterparts isn't bad at all in my opinion, and I presume they'll keep improving their packaging with future chip iterations. Technically if they can get that polymer TIM layer thin enough it could match the performance of a thicker indium solder sheet.
Either way, it's sad but that's how it's going to be from now on, I don't see Intel going back to solder.

Radox-0 · 26 Apr 2018 at 11:11

AndreiD said:
The Material Optimization and Reliability Characterization of an Indium-Solder Thermal Interface Material for CPU Packaging 2006 research summary straight from Intel's materials science department. Apparently indium based solder has a reliability impact on smaller dies since constant thermal cycling will cause the solder sheet to crack and with it the die it sits on top of. But that's for smaller dies, there's still not much info on why they don't solder their big HEDT dies.
I reckon they probably improve their margins slightly by using polymer TIM and it's probably also due to their push to be environmentally friendly (they most likely get tax breaks since polymer TIM is indeed a lot more environmentally friendly than indium solder).

The issue with the big Skylake-X chips is if you do AVX stress testing on them and the motherboards don't apply the TDP limits properly at stock, a lot of X299 motherboards apparently don't. The AVX throughput of those chips is massive (akin to 4x Zen cores per Skylake-X core).

On that note, der8auer desoldered and delided old 6950X and 5960X chips and still got 8~10C better temps with liquid metal, mainly due to the solder sheet being thick on those (probably for reliability reasons). Their polymer TIM Skylake-X being only ~10C off their soldered counterparts isn't bad at all in my opinion, and I presume they'll keep improving their packaging with future chip iterations. Technically if they can get that polymer TIM layer thin enough it could match the performance of a thicker indium solder sheet.
Either way, it's sad but that's how it's going to be from now on, I don't see Intel going back to solder.

Thanks, indeed seen that paper which is partly why I was puzzled we still see a solder used on CPU's post paper and hoping to see a more modern source of the impact and have been looking since I got my X299 chips. Also in part because since that paper, we saw various CPU from the Intel side, both HEDT and Mainstream appear years after with soldered CPU's and AMD more recently, unless they have found something to get around the issues Intel see. I also agree I think its margins mostly which is why its largely frustrating to be honest.

Yes, powerpull of X299 CPUs is massive at times, seen mine overclocked pull well in excess of 500 watts under load and overclocked, now makes me curious how the Liquid metal is holding up underneath the CPU, would suspect not an issue as there are no problem with temps with proper cooling. Not encountered a specific AVX bug however, but know there is some flaky stuff going on with that and not apparent as I am overclocked anyways.

Yep, sadly don't think we will be going back to soldered CPU's with Intel sadly and stuck with toothpaste. If AMD can manage to overcome the issues on mainstream aswell as there Threadripper which can draw a lot of power, would have hoped Intel could, but as you mention, I also think its partly financial and they sell CPU's well enough regardless.

Servo · 26 Apr 2018 at 11:44

I went with the 8700k because the motherboard I wanted for the x2700 needed a bios flash to work. SO tomorrow I will be building the 8700k(happy days)

Dicehunter · 26 Apr 2018 at 22:07

Well I got the 8700K, Also the Maximus X Formula, Impressed with the performance so far

Doogles · 26 Apr 2018 at 22:19

Dicehunter said:
Well I got the 8700K, Also the Maximus X Formula, Impressed with the performance so far

Glad to hear it, was going to have your 1800x and CH6 on the MM but was to late!

If I see another decent deal on a Ryzen platform I'll bite otherwise I guess waiting it out now coffee lake has been out for over 6 months is the best bet. How much volts you running for 5ghz and are you delidded?

Dicehunter · 26 Apr 2018 at 22:21

Doogles said:
Glad to hear it, was going to have your 1800x and CH6 on the MM but was to late! If I see another decent deal on a Ryzen platform I'll bite otherwise I guess waiting it out now coffee lake has been out for over 6 months is the best bet. How much volts you running for 5ghz and are you delidded?

Got a good clocker and managed to get 5GHz stable at 1.29v, Not delidded though, I have a 360 rad cooling it and it's doing a decent job so far

eddiew · 26 Apr 2018 at 22:26

Dicehunter said:
Got a good clocker and managed to get 5GHz stable at 1.29v, Not delidded though, I have a 360 rad cooling it and it's doing a decent job so far

You are not helping me not splurge on one

Though I do only have a 240mm rad and I have no idea how much difference that would make

(That said, 4.7 on all cores would be a 27% upgrade so... Look, I screwed up and bought Ryzen a month before covfefe ok?

)

Dicehunter · 27 Apr 2018 at 06:30

eddiew said:
You are not helping me not splurge on one Though I do only have a 240mm rad and I have no idea how much difference that would make

(That said, 4.7 on all cores would be a 27% upgrade so... Look, I screwed up and bought Ryzen a month before covfefe ok? )

Enjoy what you have now, You can always wait for Zen 2 next year and drop that in your mobo, Nice big upgrade that way

Dirk Diggler · 27 Apr 2018 at 07:49

eddiew said:
You are not helping me not splurge on one Though I do only have a 240mm rad and I have no idea how much difference that would make

(That said, 4.7 on all cores would be a 27% upgrade so... Look, I screwed up and bought Ryzen a month before covfefe ok? )

Wait and see what Intel announce in a few weeks at Computex

AndreiD · 27 Apr 2018 at 09:28

Probably an 8 core 14nm++ since 10nm isn't coming in 2018 for anything high performance.

prjwebb · 27 Apr 2018 at 09:31

Both at 4.3ghz in games

Dirk Diggler · 27 Apr 2018 at 09:39

@prjwebb those 720p comparisons are pointless, look how badly both systems are choking back the GPU.