Soldato
M0KUJ1N said:
And knowing that doesn't help one bit in day to day work, at least the jobs I've worked in.
Calling I.T tech support/field technicians!!
- Thread starter Ratbag
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And knowing that doesn't help one bit in day to day work, at least the jobs I've worked in.
Soldato
M0KUJ1N said:Well you've obviously either been a) very lucky or b) someone who does has sorted the problem out
Neither. You worked anywhere else apart from the University?
M0KUJ1N said:You want some sauce for that chip on your shoulder?
Mind you I suppose I'm lucky/ unusual that I did a degree (Physics w/ Comp Sci) and spent a fair bit of my spare (and not-so spare) time hacking around with hardware, web sites and programming/scripting. Did a full-on software project in my final-year and left my Masters because I got offered a Helpdesk role I applied for about 4 yrs ago. (Doing the MSc straight after uni was a mistake and tbh I jsut wanted out) So best of both worlds (although nowadays with so much empthasis put on grades/exams by Blue Chip employers I probably wouldnt have been able to do this).
Also experience gained "on the job" generally results in fairly superficial knowledge. A good example of this would be "AD". I reckon most of the IT techs here would say that know AD pretty well. However, I bet that most of the guys banging on about how experience > * wouldnt have a clue about what AD is actually constituted from. Its relationship with LDAP and DNS. How it implements Kerberos, why it uses Kerberos as its security mechanism and what this means in terms of how passwords are transported and mutual trust relations are established. What actually goes on during DC replication.
I think you get the picture, although I could have course be doing a lot of you a dis-service
So having a degree would mean you'd know all about AD? No I didn't think so. The only way you'd really know is by going on the appropriate training courses or by teaching yourself it all about it.
I have a degree in googling, that's the most powerful qualification you can get in I.T.
M0KUJ1N said:You want some sauce for that chip on your shoulder?
Mind you I suppose I'm lucky/ unusual that I did a degree (Physics w/ Comp Sci) and spent a fair bit of my spare (and not-so spare) time hacking around with hardware, web sites and programming/scripting. Did a full-on software project in my final-year and left my Masters because I got offered a Helpdesk role I applied for about 4 yrs ago. (Doing the MSc straight after uni was a mistake and tbh I jsut wanted out) So best of both worlds (although nowadays with so much empthasis put on grades/exams by Blue Chip employers I probably wouldnt have been able to do this).
Also experience gained "on the job" generally results in fairly superficial knowledge. A good example of this would be "AD". I reckon most of the IT techs here would say that know AD pretty well. However, I bet that most of the guys banging on about how experience > * wouldnt have a clue about what AD is actually constituted from. Its relationship with LDAP and DNS. How it implements Kerberos, why it uses Kerberos as its security mechanism and what this means in terms of how passwords are transported and mutual trust relations are established. What actually goes on during DC replication.
I think you get the picture, although I could have course be doing a lot of you a dis-service
Haha, no chip on my shoulder, i am voicing my opinion, something that happens often on a forum. I don't mean any offence.
Yes all those things in AD are often overlooked and some people only learn what they need to know, which in somethings is correct.
The company i work for refused to use AD, and favoured Novell for whatever reason (Golf course decision no doubt). We have recently migrated all of our users and cluster servers from one Novell tree to another. The company has then finally after years signed off the money to upgrade our exchange servers, to 2003. DOH! AD will be required now, and i am dreading syncing these two together. I smell lost data and screaming blondes, for the wrong reason!
wyrdo said:
Bombshell! Dropped! LOL. I know about them, but have never used them, but i have more recently been using Novells eDirectory.
Kami said:I have a degree in googling, that's the most powerful qualification you can get in I.T.
Quoted for the truth!!
Associate
omg, AD = active directory? now i can follow what you lot are saying better i hate acronyms 
lol
i hate acronyms lolwyrdo said:
Completely agree. Unless you Manage/Maintain and Implement your entire network and AD forest, this is hardly going to help a PC Support/Deskside support technician. I don't think an end user would really find a lecture on how Kerberos affects their logon entirely appropriate, when they just want their account unlocking for example. (< just an example, this is not to say that you would be a general helpdesk dogsbody all the time doing admin style work like that, im just talking about the level you work at).
People with degrees are always going to stand up for themselves really and will feel that they deserve a job more than a supposedly inferior competitor due to lack of a degree of qualification.
M0KUJ1N said:You want some sauce for that chip on your shoulder?
Mind you I suppose I'm lucky/ unusual that I did a degree (Physics w/ Comp Sci) and spent a fair bit of my spare (and not-so spare) time hacking around with hardware, web sites and programming/scripting. Did a full-on software project in my final-year and left my Masters because I got offered a Helpdesk role I applied for about 4 yrs ago. (Doing the MSc straight after uni was a mistake and tbh I jsut wanted out) So best of both worlds (although nowadays with so much empthasis put on grades/exams by Blue Chip employers I probably wouldnt have been able to do this).
Also experience gained "on the job" generally results in fairly superficial knowledge. A good example of this would be "AD". I reckon most of the IT techs here would say that know AD pretty well. However, I bet that most of the guys banging on about how experience > * wouldnt have a clue about what AD is actually constituted from. Its relationship with LDAP and DNS. How it implements Kerberos, why it uses Kerberos as its security mechanism and what this means in terms of how passwords are transported and mutual trust relations are established. What actually goes on during DC replication.
I think you get the picture, although I could have course be doing a lot of you a dis-service
LOL I used to work with someone just like you. He could recite the layers of the TCP/IP stack and know how it all communicated and worked. He also couldnt configure a DHCP server scope to work properly or install a hard disk into a machine either. He studied for years at great expense to the first company I worked in passing every qualification MS and Cisco did at the time, then fell flat on his face at the first implementation of a multi-site installation as he didnt know anything but theory. Just simply had filled his brain with knowledge which replaced the common sense and problem solving elements which are more important IMO.
You can take all the theory stuff and apply it to a mulitude of jobs I am sure (possibly working at programming or similar?), however in a helpdesk/support enviroment you are simply decreasing your ability to talk "laymens" terms to end users who dont really give a stuff about LDAP and DNS they just want their email to work.
Soldato
A Computer Science student won't follow a I.T. Support Role. University doesn't really come into it when you are applying for support role jobs.
Well i've work in IT since I was 18, as a VAN driver had no GCSES was actualyl an apprentice plumber before hand.
I can honestly say I've seen CNE's MCNE's MCSE's who didnt even know what an inside of a server is.
My G/F and all her friends have Computer siecnce degrees and work in IT in some form or another, you ask them to pipe the results of a batch file to a text file they dont know how.
It's amazing how many people in IT today dont know the basics I dont profess to be an IT God but I know that if X does not work the likely causes are Y Z etc .
So my advice to you is just take any IT job you can ..ask as many questions as you can and show apptitude in your work, look to make your job easier proving that you have a progresive mind.
LOGS
I can honestly say I've seen CNE's MCNE's MCSE's who didnt even know what an inside of a server is.
My G/F and all her friends have Computer siecnce degrees and work in IT in some form or another, you ask them to pipe the results of a batch file to a text file they dont know how.
It's amazing how many people in IT today dont know the basics I dont profess to be an IT God but I know that if X does not work the likely causes are Y Z etc .
So my advice to you is just take any IT job you can ..ask as many questions as you can and show apptitude in your work, look to make your job easier proving that you have a progresive mind.
LOGS
I can see your points but I don't see where you get the idea that academic education and practical application are mutually exclusive. I've seen people with shedloads of experience (> 20 yrs) who I wouldnt trust to plug in a toaster nevermind a hard disk. I've also seen people with similarly broad experience who are experts in their field. Similarly with degree-educated peers.
However, a (good) degree does provide a solid foundation (even if you can't recite the entire ISO/OSI standard and the various parts of the TCP/IP stack verbatim, the fact that you have seen and understood them at some point in the past is a useful troubleshooting skill). It is no substitute for practical experience obviously but it's generally a lot easier and more logical to learn theory first, then how to apply it to real-world situations rather than doing something parrot-fashion and then learning the underlying theory piecemeal at a later date.
Also as for the point about me working at a University. I haven't had a non-University IT job (any positions I've seen in industry are generally a lot more limited in scope and rigid, or don't pay as well, pending my promotion going through of course!) However I have performed consultancy work on behalf of the University, mainly for government organisations, implementing and maintaining heterogeneous environments (mainly Windows+Linux).
However, a (good) degree does provide a solid foundation (even if you can't recite the entire ISO/OSI standard and the various parts of the TCP/IP stack verbatim, the fact that you have seen and understood them at some point in the past is a useful troubleshooting skill). It is no substitute for practical experience obviously but it's generally a lot easier and more logical to learn theory first, then how to apply it to real-world situations rather than doing something parrot-fashion and then learning the underlying theory piecemeal at a later date.
Also as for the point about me working at a University. I haven't had a non-University IT job (any positions I've seen in industry are generally a lot more limited in scope and rigid, or don't pay as well, pending my promotion going through of course!) However I have performed consultancy work on behalf of the University, mainly for government organisations, implementing and maintaining heterogeneous environments (mainly Windows+Linux).
Most mainstream BSc computer science degrees are for people who want to be developers (programmers in old world parlance). For those wanting to be network engineers or Microsoft desktop people then follow a non academic industrial route.
Field service engineers earn poorly generally, however there may be incentives for overtime and company cars etc. Pick your qualification carefully, Microsoft and CISCO accreditations are eagerly sought and guarantee work generally especially if you have experience to back it up.
Just pick your IT career carefully because once you in one specialism you will not easily be able to move to another, agenices see to that.
Field service engineers earn poorly generally, however there may be incentives for overtime and company cars etc. Pick your qualification carefully, Microsoft and CISCO accreditations are eagerly sought and guarantee work generally especially if you have experience to back it up.
Just pick your IT career carefully because once you in one specialism you will not easily be able to move to another, agenices see to that.
Associate
My CS degree would not help at all for IT support since its really theoretical and you can't beat hands on experience for support. Then again I would never apply to do IT support so its out of the question. As severance says its aimed at programmers/people wanting to study a numeric/problem solving course. If I was recruiting for a support roll practical experience would be deciding factor.
Associate
- Joined
- 4 Jan 2005
- Posts
- 407
I've been in IT for 27 years, mostly as a field service engineer. I've stuck with it because I enjoy the freedom of being on the road, and interacting with customers, most of whom are pleased to see me, because they know that I can fix their PC/server/network/ATM/POS system/till, etc. I work on a huge range of different equipment, in places as varied as shops, banks, factories, MOT garages, and private houses.
I left school with A levels, as did 90% of the people that I've ever worked with. The other 10% have had college qualifications or degrees. The ones with certificates or diplomas made the grade, while those with degrees all jacked it in, because they couldn't handle the pressure. I've seen graduates come into the job, thinking that they know everything, and making fools of themselves in front of our customers. I'm not perfect, but I know who to ask when I get stuck, and I can keep the customer happy.
I was taught that years ago - fix the customer first, then try and fix the fault.
Being able to leave site with a happy customer, despite not having fixed the fault after 2 visits, is a skill you learn on the job, not in a classroom.
The money isn't great - $22K basic, +about £16K on call allowance and overtime, + lease car, healthcare, pension, etc - but it's enough for where I live (Cornwall).
The people who are getting into this line now tend to start as technical couriers, delivering and installing printers, screens, etc., and doing "quick fix" calls. The other route is as an installation engineer, fitting-out new shops, banks, etc. If they show an ability to think, they are given more responsibilty, and eventually get jobs as "proper" engineers.
I left school with A levels, as did 90% of the people that I've ever worked with. The other 10% have had college qualifications or degrees. The ones with certificates or diplomas made the grade, while those with degrees all jacked it in, because they couldn't handle the pressure. I've seen graduates come into the job, thinking that they know everything, and making fools of themselves in front of our customers. I'm not perfect, but I know who to ask when I get stuck, and I can keep the customer happy.
I was taught that years ago - fix the customer first, then try and fix the fault.
Being able to leave site with a happy customer, despite not having fixed the fault after 2 visits, is a skill you learn on the job, not in a classroom.
The money isn't great - $22K basic, +about £16K on call allowance and overtime, + lease car, healthcare, pension, etc - but it's enough for where I live (Cornwall).
The people who are getting into this line now tend to start as technical couriers, delivering and installing printers, screens, etc., and doing "quick fix" calls. The other route is as an installation engineer, fitting-out new shops, banks, etc. If they show an ability to think, they are given more responsibilty, and eventually get jobs as "proper" engineers.
