Can you prove that God does not exist?

[Mr.Clark]

Stop taking things so absolutely in black and white. The power to assign free will does not imply lack of absolute power—if anything, the opposite—it's one thing to create drones, it's quite another to create one capable of independent thought. Please, please, please get some basic knowledge on the subject before stirring up pseudo-controversy.

But if God has knowledge of everything that is to come, that means that we don't have free will at all. We think we're choosing to jump off a cliff, but God already knew that we were going to do it. No choice at all.

If God can do anything, can he make a ditch too wide for him to jump?

FFS, stop with the paradoxical arguments. Anyone can do it, and anyone can create them pertaining to mankind, rendering your existence flawed in such a sense. Boring and irrelevant.

Why, because you can't come up with a way to refute them that preserves your argument?

 

[Reeve]

But if God has knowledge of everything that is to come, that means that we don't have free will at all. We think we're choosing to jump off a cliff, but God already knew that we were going to do it. No choice at all.

im sure every human action is predictable by a powerful enough computer with an absolute knowledge of the human brain and said persons past experiences, it would just be extremely complicated.

in my eyes the universe and everything in it could have never happened any other way than the way it is happening, to do that there would have to be something completely random occuring (does such a thing really exist or is it because we just cant measure what affects it?) if there is then i am wrong

anyway i forgot what i was going to say now..

 

[Clinkz]

Stop taking things so absolutely in black and white. The power to assign free will does not imply lack of absolute power—if anything, the opposite—it's one thing to create drones, it's quite another to create one capable of independent thought. Please, please, please get some basic knowledge on the subject before stirring up pseudo-controversy.

When have i ever stated facts as black and white. I have already previously stated i am agnostic which is about as un-black and white as one might get. You are the one pertaining to absolutes.

'The power to assign free will does not imply lack of absolute power—if anything, the opposite' - Surely to assign free will is to give away a part of absolute power, since the master no longer has absolute control over the minion. Free will and all powerful are at opposites with each other. It is impossible for both to exist, its the difference between everything and nothing, zero and infinity. It would be fair to say gods power = absolute power - free will.

'it's one thing to create drones, it's quite another to create one capable of independent thought.' - I quite agree, however where does one draw the line between independent thought and simple sense-respond systems. The only limit on our current ability as Human Beings to create new life forms is our lack of efficient bio-mechanical technology. As a software designer, i can see no reason why the theoretical implementation of a self-subservient life form should be impossible.

'Please, please, please get some basic knowledge on the subject before stirring up pseudo-controversy.' - On which subject exactly do you wish me to study up on? Since religion is speculative not absolute i can see no reason why an argument may not be as valid as any other argument. Or do we only get to play by your rules?

 

[Dolph]

Indeed, the two are mutually exclusive.

No they aren't, as they assume that if there was an all powerful god, that he/she must control our thoughts or our actions. We could have free will quite happily if the deity chose not to intervene, even if they were capable of it...

 

[Mr.Clark]

Not control our actions, but if an omniscient being exists, then that's proof that everything is pre-determined.

If I watch you walking up to a T junction and know which way you're going to turn, you don't have free will. You may think you do, but if I can say with 100% accuracy which way you're going to go, you don't have free will.

 

[Dolph]

Not control our actions, but if an omniscient being exists, then that's proof that everything is pre-determined.

How? That doesn't actually make any sense.

If I watch you walking up to a T junction and know which way you're going to turn, you don't have free will. You may think you do, but if I can say with 100% accuracy which way you're going to go, you don't have free will.

Only if time is absolute and not relative to the individuals involved (something that's assumed, especially for science, but not testable).

Have you ever heard of the double slit experiment and the strange behaviour it exhibits depending on what you do with the data after it's collected?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser

If I knew what you were going to do tomorrow, there are more possible explainations than you don't have free will, especially if I was a much higher form of life who may not follow the same rules you have to. (Remember, our scientific rules are based on our observations, they are not absolutes)

 

[Kreeeee]

Boring and irrelevant.

Perfectly sums up this thread

*Cue "why bother posting" brigade*

 

[supernova9]

Has anyone considered that Atheism is not a lack of faith, but merely faith that there is no deity? If someone could prove God does not exist, concretely, then atheism would (and should, and I say this as a practising Christian) be the only logical religious choice.

However, God has not been disproved. Thus, people can lay their faith where they choose. Some people place it with the concept of science, and call it Atheism, some people assign it to God, and call it Religion. Two different views, similar levels of faith.

 

[psyr33n]

But if God has knowledge of everything that is to come, that means that we don't have free will at all. We think we're choosing to jump off a cliff, but God already knew that we were going to do it. No choice at all.

The Christian view is not that he is making you do the act, simply that God knows you so well that he knows what you do in every given circumstance. He understands your will; he does not direct it.

Why, because you can't come up with a way to refute them that preserves your argument?

No, because they're contextually nonsensical. As I said, anyone can create a simple paradox.

On which subject exactly do you wish me to study up on? Since religion is speculative not absolute i can see no reason why an argument may not be as valid as any other argument. Or do we only get to play by your rules?

It's the fact that so many people seem to be arguing the absence of God as factual, which if it was the case then religion would be physically (not just theoretically as some might argue is the current case) obsolete. It was not particularly aimed at you, rather at a lot of people in the thread: I'm not a Christian, but people coming in the thread to argue petty and trivial little nuances or predefined mantras they feel like adopting isn't worthwhile.

 

[Kreeeee]

However, God has not been disproved. Thus, people can lay their faith where they choose. Some people place it with the concept of science, and call it Atheism, some people assign it to God, and call it Religion. Two different views, similar levels of faith.

Science seems more tangible though as we actively search for explanations and try to explain contradictions rather than ignoring them to stick to a solid faith. Science is akin to an adaptive faith.

 

[Clinkz]

However, God has not been disproved. Thus, people can lay their faith where they choose. Some people place it with the concept of science, and call it Atheism, some people assign it to God, and call it Religion. Two different views, similar levels of faith.

Would people please stop relating Science to Atheism. Niether has anything to do with the other. Many of the great scientists are/were religious and im sure many atheists are not scientific types.

 

[supernova9]

Science seems more tangible though as we actively search for explanations and try to explain contradictions rather than ignoring them to stick to a solid faith. Science is akin to an adaptive faith.

People revise their religious faith in light of their life-events and changing circumstances. I speak as one of them. I completely agree that religious faith that is static is useless, and results in people completely out of touch with reality.

 

[supernova9]

Would people please stop relating Science to Atheism. Niether has anything to do with the other. Many of the great scientists are/were religious and im sure many atheists are not scientific types.

Fine, remove science, just look at the atheism aspect of it. Do you disagree with what I posted?

 

[Tunney]

Can you prove that God does not exist?

No. You can't prove a negative.

 

[Vonhelmet]

'God is all powerful'

If god is all powerful then logically he not only permits but actively engages in evil deeds throughout the world today.

Not sure how you "logically" deduce that.

 

[Vonhelmet]

Why, because you can't come up with a way to refute them that preserves your argument?

The simple solution is that the questions don't make sense. To say "Can God make a rock so heavy he can't lift it" is to ask "Can an unstoppable force exist at the same time as an immovable object". The answer is obviously no, unless you accept that God could do things that would defy your understanding of them. So, if God is within human logic, the answer is no - because the questions don't even make sense. If he is outside human logic, the answer is yes - but you wouldn't understand it if you saw it happen.

 

[Dolph]

Would people please stop relating Science to Atheism. Niether has anything to do with the other. Many of the great scientists are/were religious and im sure many atheists are not scientific types.

The vast majority of atheists frequently (mis)use science as a means to justify their position. While the two things are not related (science is agnostic, not atheist for a start), the vast majority of anti-god arguments in this thread are from people claiming to come from a science/logic based position.

 

[growse]

*various babble about different versions of the bible*

Have you actually studied this? I mean, properly, under people who are experts in ancient Hebrew, Greek and biblical history? Not just googling around for stuff?

I have several 1st class theology scholars available to hand who all agree you're basically talking nonsense. I agree with the earlier poster who suggests you actually go and do some real research, and not just pick things up from the internet.

 

[THMRK]

I don't understand all the people quoting or creating paradoxes in this thread. If God exists, then you're creating paradoxes and asking questions of a mind you would fail to understand at any rate. Bearing in mind that a deities reasoning would only be logical to him alone and even at that, the deities reasoning would work outside of what we could understand.

As for the free will arguement. If you imagine that a deity is outside of space and time, free will does not automatically mean that God doesn't exist. What it does mean is that God, can see every possible future for every living thing in existance in the universe. From that perspective, all futures are true. It is merely down to the person to decide which one to choose. I suppose from there, you could say "But wouldn't God know which one you were going to choose when presented with all the options?" which is a fair counter arguement. But from that, if all possible outcomes are true, then no matter which one you choose, it would be correct and a God would know anyway.

Of course, if you were to go with the passive God arguement, then all of that would be rendering meaningless.

Sorry, just rambling a bit there. Carry on.

 

[Glaucus]

But if God has knowledge of everything that is to come, that means that we don't have free will at all. We think we're choosing to jump off a cliff, but God already knew that we were going to do it. No choice at all.

what, he simply knows what your choice is going to be, not taht he's has forced you to jump off the cliff.

Next pointless question please.