Poll: Canadian Grand Prix 2019, Montréal - Race 7/21

[JBeck]

You realise Arrivabene was replaced in like, January, meaning the concept for this car and almost everything made for this season was nearly finished before Binotto took over? In general they'll start some work on the next years car pretty much start of the season, they'll be finishing the major design points towards the end of the season and be building the car over winter while working on further upgrades and tweaks for it.

All the strategy calls, though many were completely overplayed, were under Arrivabene's watch. In general a new guy takes over, takes a few months, analyses what he wants to change and starts making those changes. He only just started reorganising the technical structure which I believe was said to be giving individual departments a bit more autonomy and leadership, etc.

If Binotto is good or not pretty much starts showing up next year or even the year after. If he's started headhunting people he wants then those can take time to bring in, starting in Jan then he won't have had a chance to make many or really any senior engineering changes before the season is over and they'll be pretty late for working on next years car.


Also on top of that Ferrari were so competitive in 2017 and 18 primarily due to the massive headstart they had from unlimiting testing in 2015. Again I'll say either they wasted time spending all that time testing a dead end 2016 concept, or they spent all that time coming up with the best 2017 car they could. They made a HUGE leap forward on chassis between 2016 and 2017 and were for me around equally as good as Merc over those two seasons.

Either way it's WAY too early to be blaming Binotto for this year's car or lack of changes at Ferrari. Bosses at teams take time to make and implement changes and most of this car was designed and built with Arrivabene calling the shots and having had the same several years himself to make the personnel/structure changes he wanted.

Yes I realise when the car was finished. I'm not talking about anything technical here I'm talking about decisions made by Binotto. Just because he's new is no excuse for the comedy of errors they have made, because, the buck stops with him, he IS responsible.

I'm not blaming him for the car as you suggest, can't see anywhere in any of posts where that was insinuated? The truth is Arrivabene was sacked because Ferrari didn't deliver and that was down to Vettel and all of his errors, but as with Binotto now, Arrivabene was the boss so he was ultimately responsible.

Expecting Ferrari to wait a couple of years to see if the man-in-charge is capable of making the correct strategy call, a call everyone watching can make themselves because it's so obvious, is just ridiculous. If he/they can't decide which of their drivers should be in front for the good of the team then they don't deserve any success.

 

[JBeck]

Just like in football, When a manager comes onboard, he is still working with players, staff and tactics that were embeded by the previous manager.

It takes a whole season or two for the new manager to start shifting the dead weight of players and staff and embed his own tactics

Yes in principal this is all good, but simple strategy calls don't take years to work out do they?

 

[JBeck]

It’s actually quite sad when you think about what these guys get paid. Ferrari are literally carried by their huge budget currently. There is much greater talent across the board in many other teams, not just Mercedes.

Indeed, their budget is huge, which the actual car performance shows, but they just seem incapable of pulling it all off and converting it into the ultimate prize. Perhaps they are relying on their heritage and budget too much and should go looking for, as you say, the bigger talent out there.

 

[The_Abyss]

Forgetting to tell one of your drivers that if he pushed he could get second place doesn't take years to work out either.

Arrivabene should be given some credit for this year's car. They've clearly developed the engine further, and there are some fundamental successes in the chassis and aero as it can compete. It could be argued that, like Mercedes at the beginning of 2018, Ferrari simply haven't worked out how to get the car into the right operating window consistently enough, and that's hardly Arravabene's fault.

 

[MartinPrince]

At last one driver jumping off the 'support fellow driver' bandwagon and calling it for what it is...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48583803

 

[Junglist]

I'm still amazed at how many people are defending yet another Vettel mistake

 

[mmj_uk]

I think Vettel and Ferrari are masters at deflecting from his errors, they have to really Ferrari have an expensive investment to protect and Vettel has his reputation as a four times World Champion.

They've made sure that all of the talk has been about the stewards decision rather than Vettel making yet another rookie mistake under pressure from Hamilton, it's no wonder Hamilton doesn't want him to retire because Vettel has such a huge reputation but wilts whenever he's put under pressure.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Forgetting to tell one of your drivers that if he pushed he could get second place doesn't take years to work out either.

Arrivabene should be given some credit for this year's car. They've clearly developed the engine further, and there are some fundamental successes in the chassis and aero as it can compete. It could be argued that, like Mercedes at the beginning of 2018, Ferrari simply haven't worked out how to get the car into the right operating window consistently enough, and that's hardly Arravabene's fault.

They of course didn't forget to tell him, that's an outward excuse to not tell him to slow down either. This season they are favouring Vettel, they said they would before this season, I have no problem with that. The Ferrari car isn't difficult to get into the right operating window, the tires are. It's a fundamental issue with car design not matching up to how the tires work this year, not, oh we need a to use that other wing or a different suspension setting. The tires are a joke and that is effecting everyone in terms of finding the right window to get the tires working well which is an entirely different issue to the tires working fine and struggling to work out how to get the best out of a car. Regardless Mercedes have struggled with the latter themselves for multiple seasons. A difficult to work with car is a difficult to work with car, that too is borne out of fundamental features of the car design, not just stupidity at track weekends.

Yes I realise when the car was finished. I'm not talking about anything technical here I'm talking about decisions made by Binotto. Just because he's new is no excuse for the comedy of errors they have made, because, the buck stops with him, he IS responsible.

I'm not blaming him for the car as you suggest, can't see anywhere in any of posts where that was insinuated? The truth is Arrivabene was sacked because Ferrari didn't deliver and that was down to Vettel and all of his errors, but as with Binotto now, Arrivabene was the boss so he was ultimately responsible.

Expecting Ferrari to wait a couple of years to see if the man-in-charge is capable of making the correct strategy call, a call everyone watching can make themselves because it's so obvious, is just ridiculous. If he/they can't decide which of their drivers should be in front for the good of the team then they don't deserve any success.

What exact comedy of errors has Ferrari made this season so far? They've been screwing Leclerc to favour Vettel. It's highly likely that Vettel has no.1 status in his contract and Ferrari for decades are even a team that favour the WDC over the WCC, primarily because the WDC gets far far more press coverage. There is a reason Ferrari no.2 drivers all look almost incompetent and most of their no.1 drivers get turned into superstars, put a decent driver in the no.2 seat and slow them down and your no.1 looks brilliant and gets more sponsorship interest.

Regardless, I still fail to see this comedy of errors. Vettel spun the car in bahrain, Vettel screwed up this weekend, both times when the car was good enough to win. leclerc is still new and messed up in Baku but had a engine failure in Bahrain. Primarily this season Vettel has had the correct strategy and then they've left Leclerc on a contra strategy both in hopes of helping Vettel and incase with a safety car he flukes into a win when Ferrari just aren't competitive enough.

 

[drunkenmaster]

I think Vettel and Ferrari are masters at deflecting from his errors, they have to really Ferrari have an expensive investment to protect and Vettel has his reputation as a four times World Champion.

They've made sure that all of the talk has been about the stewards decision rather than Vettel making yet another rookie mistake under pressure from Hamilton, it's no wonder Hamilton doesn't want him to retire because Vettel has such a huge reputation but wilts whenever he's put under pressure.

Actually I'd say Vettel did this. ULtimately before the race finished, before a single interview with a Ferrari team member, before Binotto spoke to anyone, it was Vettel's outrage in the car, it was his tantrum when back in the pits and his words on the podium that had social meda, forums and ex drivers all decrying F1 rather than Vettel.

Ferrari themselves, the team and how they've handled the media had really nothing to do with it. Vettel established the narrative, helped massively by Sky as well with brundle and Crofty raving about it, then Karun with the worst video wall I've ever seen.

See this one jerk of the wheel, that's him out of control... this several seconds he then took with completely smooth wheel action.... he's totally out of control all the way to the wall, nothing he could do........ what?

I'd actually say this was a combination of Vettel and random crappy pundits and commentators and not Ferrari they team themselves at all.

 

[JBeck]

Regardless, I still fail to see this comedy of errors. Vettel spun the car in bahrain, Vettel screwed up this weekend, both times when the car was good enough to win. leclerc is still new and messed up in Baku but had a engine failure in Bahrain. Primarily this season Vettel has had the correct strategy and then they've left Leclerc on a contra strategy both in hopes of helping Vettel and incase with a safety car he flukes into a win when Ferrari just aren't competitive enough.

But that's just it, they are swapping their drivers around on-track when they shouldn't, not doing it when they should, telling one to hold station when he shouldn't, holding each other up, spinning, spinning, claiming one driver was forgotten when he either was or was not (it doesn't matter which), failing to take advantage when it was offered, correct strategy, contra strategy. This is a professional racing team with a huge budget and high expectations but bang-for-buck are making more of a hash of things than any other outfit.

Comedy of errors.

 

[drunkenmaster]

They haven't failed to switch Vettel ahead, they've chosen not to move Leclerc ahead, that isn't a mistake, they have a no.1 driver and Leclerc had no chance to gain extra points if he was released that time so makes little difference. Spinning is not a Ferrari leadership problem.

They didn't forget, it's easier to say that than get on the radio and tell Leclerc to hold station. None of these are mistakes.

 

[The_Abyss]

They of course didn't forget to tell him, that's an outward excuse to not tell him to slow down either. This season they are favouring Vettel, they said they would before this season, I have no problem with that.

I don't disagree. What is hugely embarrassing for them is that despite this stated plan they still come up with some ******** excuse like 'we forgot to tell him'. It is pathetic.

The Ferrari car isn't difficult to get into the right operating window, the tires are. It's a fundamental issue with car design not matching up to how the tires work this year, not, oh we need a to use that other wing or a different suspension setting. The tires are a joke and that is effecting everyone in terms of finding the right window to get the tires working well which is an entirely different issue to the tires working fine and struggling to work out how to get the best out of a car. Regardless Mercedes have struggled with the latter themselves for multiple seasons. A difficult to work with car is a difficult to work with car, that too is borne out of fundamental features of the car design, not just stupidity at track weekends.

You're being needlessly pedantic. I said getting the car into the right operating window - of course that refers to getting the tyres to optimum efficiency. If you want to rant on with a wall of text about tyres then be my guest, but don't twist my words and meaning to give you your platform.

 

[drunkenmaster]

So what should they say we intentionally didn't tell him as we don't know if he might have broken team orders and tried to get within the gap creating a bigger problem for the team? There is no good excuse, but publicly fans don't like team orders, and even worse as said is if they give a team order and he defies it. Not telling him was absolutely best but also not saying yeah we didn't tell him on purpose.

What would you have said that is better?


As for being pedantic, you seem to have missed the point. Take Mercedes in 2013, the car had a fundamental issue in that the concept, the suspension, everything about it made the tires run hotter. Tires being in the window is not a week to week, oh, we add some wing, or change this a little, it's not a week to week setup thing, it's a fundamental thing. The car concept works with these tires well or doesn't. You're saying they are failing to get on top of the car as if it's a week to week, we can't find the right setup thing. With tires it's not, it's a car concept issue.

The car isn't working some weekends because they find the right setup, it's working some weekends because every race weekend is different, with tracks with different surfaces, different tire choices and different temperatures. That means the car concept can get the tires to work some places and not others. It's not they hit the right setup in Canada and the wrong setup in Barcelona, the track surface, compounds and temperatures changed, something Binotto has no control over. Literally every team is having issues where the tires work some places and not others regardless of what they do.

Conversely a fast car that has a hard setup, is something that is on the team and with some time to find it they'd work that out. In saying this is hardly Arrivabene's fault, it is entirely, car concept is on him, tire tests done last year with him at the helm, he created this car. The car isn't missing the window for tires weekend to weekend because the team at the track is getting the setup wrong, they are finding the car concept simply isn't working with the tires at multiple tracks, that's entirely on the car concept, Arrivabene is absolutely responsible for that.

 

[MartinPrince]

Actually I'd say Vettel did this. ULtimately before the race finished, before a single interview with a Ferrari team member, before Binotto spoke to anyone, it was Vettel's outrage in the car, it was his tantrum when back in the pits and his words on the podium that had social meda, forums and ex drivers all decrying F1 rather than Vettel.

Ferrari themselves, the team and how they've handled the media had really nothing to do with it. Vettel established the narrative, helped massively by Sky as well with brundle and Crofty raving about it, then Karun with the worst video wall I've ever seen.

Precisely what Jolyon Palmer alludes to in his BBC article. He also makes the salient comparison with Verstappen last year.

Vettel's incident was almost a carbon copy of Max Verstappen's with Kimi Raikkonen at the final chicane in Japan last year, just 11 races ago.

In Japan, Verstappen locked up under pressure from the Finn, cut the corner, and in rejoining he forced Raikkonen off and kept the place.

The Red Bull driver picked up a five-second penalty, and few complained about it afterwards. The general reaction was that Verstappen was too aggressive and deserved it. And I can guarantee you the Ferrari camp would have agreed with that penalty at the time.

In fact, Vettel said so publicly - stating that the driver in Raikkonen's position should not always have to take avoiding action.

 

[mmj_uk]

Actually I'd say Vettel did this. ULtimately before the race finished, before a single interview with a Ferrari team member, before Binotto spoke to anyone, it was Vettel's outrage in the car, it was his tantrum when back in the pits and his words on the podium that had social meda, forums and ex drivers all decrying F1 rather than Vettel.

Ferrari themselves, the team and how they've handled the media had really nothing to do with it. Vettel established the narrative, helped massively by Sky as well with brundle and Crofty raving about it, then Karun with the worst video wall I've ever seen.

See this one jerk of the wheel, that's him out of control... this several seconds he then took with completely smooth wheel action.... he's totally out of control all the way to the wall, nothing he could do........ what?

I'd actually say this was a combination of Vettel and random crappy pundits and commentators and not Ferrari they team themselves at all.

Well you're right that Vettel started it but even if Ferrari realise that he's not performing like an experienced four times champion they don't really have any choice but to play along and protect their investment, Ferrari have appealed so it's not like they're not part of it. I think despite Vettel being a four times champion he probably knows that because of how easy he had it at Red Bull he's still lacking in some areas and so to try to hide his errors/shortcomings he's going out of his way to create controversy and deflect.

It'd be interesting to see how thngs would be with Vettel in the Mercedes and Hamilton in the Ferrari, I think Vettel would probably be as dominant because he is fast but at the same time I don't think Hamilton would have shown the same pattern of rookie mistakes and wilting under pressure like Vettel has done.

 

[drunkenmaster]

For me Hamilton wins at least one if not both of the past two seasons in that Ferrari. Vettel not having no.1 status at Merc in the same way I think would have dropped even more points to Bottas than Hamilton would have and add some mistakes for him and lack of the same mistakes for Hamilton and I think he wins out. ultimately they were close in points before Vettel started dropping silly amounts of points while also Hamilton is faster so in some of the close races where he didn't screw up but he was second and Hamilton had killer pace and won, some of those would reverse too imo.

Now current Verstappen in the Ferrari in the last two years, or Hamilton there and Verstappen in the Merc.... that would be a tough call. The sport needs Verstappen and Hamilton in either the same car or in the two top teams right now. Would be cool if Ham moved to Ferrari and won again to show how damn good he is but more likely he stays and Verstappen goes Ferrari. I think both are probably offering Verstappen very nice contracts for whenever his deal is up which I forget if it's end of this or end of next season.

 

[Jimbeam3678]

https://www.facebook.com/568665409957112/posts/1370029769820668?s=204502236&v=e&sfns=mo

Does that work?

Yes thank you. Great sport and strange these things aren’t shown on tv.

 

[jonneymendoza]

 

[jonneymendoza]

Question to u all. Would you but vettel in your top 5 drivers of the past 10 years?

i wouldnt.

My top 5-7 drivers for the last 10 years are:

Hamilton
Verstappen
Roseberg
Alonso
kimi
Ricardo
Massa


Vettel not even on that list.

 

[an0nym0us]

There's a great comment after this video that says:
"I feel that a good to way to judge a penalty is to ask yourself: If that was Grosjean, would he deserve a penalty?"