Capitalist Vigilantes

You saying more stability is impossible and not worth wishing for?

also how do you go out and earn more money?

I didn't make the original statement, Angilion claimed our system was "unstable", when relatively and demonstrably it isn't. Plus there's no evidence to suggest any instability is caused by Capitalism, most of it seems Political and social.

You develop your marketable skills and apply for higher paying positions, or you start a business and find a gap in the market that needs filling.
 
Unstable compared to what? We're one of the most stable nations on Earth, at a time where human kind has seen the most stability ever, we're living in an era called the "Long Peace" where there hasn't been any major wars between great powers in 75 years. What more stability do you want? Just deal with the fact that not everyone can be Bill Gates and if you want more money then go out and earn it.

Yes, of course! I had somehow missed all the people in this thread saying that everyone should be a multi-billionaire! How on earth did I miss that?

Oh. Yes. I missed it because it didn't exist. You made it up so you'd have a strawman to fight. You're sure doing a good job of fighting the strawman you created. Well done!

We have repeated financial crises and on ongoing and increasing conflict between nations and ever more powerful transnational businesses over who's in charge. A current lack of world wars isn't the only measure of stability. Also, I didn't even say that the cobbled-together mashup of systems is currently failing badly, that it's currently destablised to an extreme extent. I said it was unstable and I said why I thought that. An unstable system can be maintained at a reasonable degree of balance, at least for a while. But you ignore everything in order to fight your strawman.
 
I didn't make the original statement, Angilion claimed our system was "unstable", when relatively and demonstrably it isn't. Plus there's no evidence to suggest any instability is caused by Capitalism, most of it seems Political and social.

You develop your marketable skills and apply for higher paying positions, or you start a business and find a gap in the market that needs filling.

if everyone does that then inflation just rises and nothing changes. Eventually there will be no gaps in the market.
 
Eventually there will be no gaps in the market.

And then new markets appear, with their own gaps to be filled. Rinse and repeat.

Of course not everyone goes out and looks for opportunities. Some people just plod along in whatever job presents itself.
 
Lots of reasons, perhaps your customers want it!

There might well be a market for human-made stuff if that remains fashionable, but it won't be a large enough market to provide mass employment. Artists and patrons, essentially.

Nope, that isn't the only possible exception at all. Automation doesn't necessarily replace people even, it can just make them more effective at their jobs, lots of automation can help with diagnostics in medicine for example but there is still room for a human practitioner to consult with a patient, there is still room for a nurse to look after a room of patients in hospital etc..

If automation partially replaces paid work (which is what "make them more effective at their jobs" means), that means fewer people are required to do the work. As I have repeatedly said, I am not saying that there won't be any paid work. I'm saying that there won't be enough paid work to sustain the current socioeconomic system, which requires a large majority of people to be doing a large amount of paid work.

It's not just artists who "create" - again who is going to make the decisions? Who is going to come up with new ideas? Who is going to manage the relationships at either a high level or a low level - whether that is relationships with customers or relationships between businesses.

Who is going to make legal arguments - are we letting some super AI rule over us here too? Or if we're not talking super AI then... well by default you've got legal work.

Same again - I'm not saying that there won't be any paid work. Also...relationships with customers? Most business already try to do as little of that as possible and replace it with automation.

There is no basis for that claim though, so long as there is money and demand for people to do things then there will still be work.

Same again - I'm not saying that there won't be any paid work.

I mean there is no need for cooking at home - I can get a ready meal from the supermarket... that process has been automated in the factory that creates those things I can just stick it in the microwave yet people cook stuff from scratch still...

Which isn't paid work unless they're employed as a personal cook for someone else. People cook from scratch for various reasons (because it's cheaper, because they perceive the food to be better, because they are in the habit of doing so, because they like cooking, whatever) but very few of them get paid for doing it.

sometimes they might order in a takeaway, sometimes they might go out to a restaurant and eat a meal - surely given we've got access to pre-prepared food that restaurant shouldn't exist? A restaurant is a very inefficient way of getting food into your body right?

What about those guys taking the food from the kitchen to the table - what's the point in them? Surely waiters shouldn't exist - restaurants could go for a McDonald's style ordering system instead? Yet the demand is there, people do those jobs in spite of automation - this notion that just because automation exists or efficient methods for getting something exist means that jobs will vanish isn't how things have worked out in reality.

It's true that there is still a fashion for having human servants. It's also still true that people are often cheaper and more versatile than automation. At the moment, both those things are true. But becoming increasingly less so.
 
If automation partially replaces paid work (which is what "make them more effective at their jobs" means), that means fewer people are required to do the work. As I have repeatedly said, I am not saying that there won't be any paid work. I'm saying that there won't be enough paid work to sustain the current socioeconomic system, which requires a large majority of people to be doing a large amount of paid work.

Why won't there be? Automation has partially replaced paid work for over 200 years and what you're asserting hasn't happened.

Same again - I'm not saying that there won't be any paid work. Also...relationships with customers? Most business already try to do as little of that as possible and replace it with automation.

That just isn't true - for example why are sale people employed - why not just send out marketing material and then wait for orders?

Which isn't paid work unless they're employed as a personal cook for someone else. People cook from scratch for various reasons (because it's cheaper, because they perceive the food to be better, because they are in the habit of doing so, because they like cooking, whatever) but very few of them get paid for doing it.

Exactly - there are any number of reasons why people don't choose the option of some automatically produced ready meal, that automation exists doesn't mean it necessarily replaces everything.

It's true that there is still a fashion for having human servants. It's also still true that people are often cheaper and more versatile than automation. At the moment, both those things are true. But becoming increasingly less so.

That isn't true in that example though, they're literally not needed - food can be serves from a counter, customers don't need to be waited on etc..

The claims you're making about automation just don't stand up to how things actually work, there are a whole load of jobs that exist today that we don't actually have any inherent need for, all that has happened over the past two centuries is that as jobs are automated people are free to do other things - in general humans don't just sit around doing nothing and so long as money exists then performing some activity for another person will continue to exist.
 
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Yes so ideally you want as little power as possible in the hands of a small group of people, because even with the limited power government has things like lobbying occurs and people abuse their position. Now imagine lobbying x10,000 except it's just the government stealing money and giving it to their friends and family with no oversight and you've got the USSR.

Sounds like our current government… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
if everyone does that then inflation just rises and nothing changes. Eventually there will be no gaps in the market.

Imagine this being your understanding of economics

Yes, of course! I had somehow missed all the people in this thread saying that everyone should be a multi-billionaire! How on earth did I miss that?

Oh. Yes. I missed it because it didn't exist. You made it up so you'd have a strawman to fight. You're sure doing a good job of fighting the strawman you created. Well done!

We have repeated financial crises and on ongoing and increasing conflict between nations and ever more powerful transnational businesses over who's in charge. A current lack of world wars isn't the only measure of stability. Also, I didn't even say that the cobbled-together mashup of systems is currently failing badly, that it's currently destablised to an extreme extent. I said it was unstable and I said why I thought that. An unstable system can be maintained at a reasonable degree of balance, at least for a while. But you ignore everything in order to fight your strawman.

There's nothing to really respond to here, it's fairly clear that actually our lives have never been better, quality of lives have improved vastly in the past 70 years, even the UK has thrived since we ditched far left Socialism in favor of Thatcherism in the 80's.
 
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Why won't there be? Automation has partially replaced paid work for over 200 years and what you're asserting hasn't happened.

Because (as I said before) bulk employment moved to different areas of work, ones that were not highly automated. Roughly, it moved from agriculture to manufacturing to services. What comes next?

I think your argument is like an animal fleeing habitat loss as humans spread. Humans take over one valley, the animal moves to the next valley over. Humans take over that valley, the animal moves to the next one. But it's OK. The animal can just move to the next valley each time. The valleys will never run out. The world is endless and has no coasts.

That just isn't true - for example why are sale people employed - why not just send out marketing material and then wait for orders?

Selling at people is not a relationship. It's an attempt to acquire usable assets.

Exactly - there are any number of reasons why people don't choose the option of some automatically produced ready meal, that automation exists doesn't mean it necessarily replaces everything.

Who said it did? You're countering an argument that hasn't been made.

That isn't true in that example though, they're literally not needed - food can be serves from a counter, customers don't need to be waited on etc..

And in that example the fashion for human servants applies. In other examples, the cheapness and versatility of low-paid humans applies. Cleaning, for example. It also applies to some extent to bringing food to customers at their table - that could be automated, but doing so would have an initial cost and would be less versatile.

The claims you're making about automation just don't stand up to how things actually work, there are a whole load of jobs that exist today that we don't actually have any inherent need for, all that has happened over the past two centuries is that as jobs are automated people are free to do other things - in general humans don't just sit around doing nothing and so long as money exists then performing some activity for another person will continue to exist.

As I said, the fashion for human servants exists. It will probably continue to do so, though it might not. What it won't do is provide mass employment.
 
There's nothing to really respond to here

You can't respond to any of it, perhaps because it's not the silly hyper-simplistic strawman you've been so passionately fighting.

Quality of life has certainly improved since the introduction of massive socialist programs curbing the worst of capitalism, to creatre a mashup of bits of both systems. Welfare state, NHS, health and safety at work, minimum wage, etc. Improved enormously. A mashup of bits of both systems is the least bad system anyone has yet come up with. We still have increasing poverty in wealthy countries as the gap between the elite and the masses increases again. We still have people dependent on charity for food even though they're working. We still have financial crises caused by insufficient restrictions on capitalism. But it's still much less bad than either system alone. Your advocacy of one extreme is not better (and in practice very little different) to advocacy of the other extreme.
 
We still have increasing poverty in wealthy countries as the gap between the elite and the masses increases again.

Inequality is a silly way of measuring poverty though (but the one I believe we mostly use in the west - make of that what you will). If everyone got richer, the system can be deemed a success. Not perfect for sure, but perfect doesn't exist in the real world.
 
Inequality is a silly way of measuring poverty though (but the one I believe we mostly use in the west - make of that what you will). If everyone got richer, the system can be deemed a success. Not perfect for sure, but perfect doesn't exist in the real world.
Money is only a means to an end. I don't think it's even possible for everybody to get richer.

In theory it's possible for everyone to be better off tho. But it requires society to pull together to achieve this. For people to value the collective good as much as the individual good (aka their own good).

I'm not sure that will happen in my lifetime. Or ever.
 
Money is only a means to an end. I don't think it's even possible for everybody to get richer.

In theory it's possible for everyone to be better off tho. But it requires society to pull together to achieve this. For people to value the collective good as much as the individual good (aka their own good).

I'm not sure that will happen in my lifetime. Or ever.

I'm not sure by which measure you think that we're not all richer (obviously I don't literally mean all, but everyone except those with literally nothing). Think about what the average person has now compared with a few decades ago. Even someone like you, who seems to think that they've been neglected by the system - what hardships are forced on you by society?
 
Inequality is a silly way of measuring poverty though (but the one I believe we mostly use in the west - make of that what you will). If everyone got richer, the system can be deemed a success. Not perfect for sure, but perfect doesn't exist in the real world.

I wasn't using inequality as a way of measuring poverty. I was using actual poverty as a way of measuring poverty and mentioning the increasing inequality as a cause.
 
Because (as I said before) bulk employment moved to different areas of work, ones that were not highly automated. Roughly, it moved from agriculture to manufacturing to services. What comes next?

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one tbh... as it is just going round in circles, I don't see why work should either simply vanish or in your argument become incredibly scarce because current work can be made more efficient, that simply frees people up to do other things, it doesn't remove the fact that so long as we have money and systems of trade you can pay others to do *something*.
 
I'm not sure by which measure you think that we're not all richer (obviously I don't literally mean all, but everyone except those with literally nothing). Think about what the average person has now compared with a few decades ago. Even someone like you, who seems to think that they've been neglected by the system - what hardships are forced on you by society?
You only have to look at the housing market to see one way which we're most definitely not better off.

Today we saddle people with hundreds of thousands of debt which takes an entire lifetime to pay off. Many (most?) people entering the housing market today will be paying off their mortgage for 30-40 years or more.

I'm not quite sure that makes us richer. We might well be better off in some regards, but not richer, unless you want to ignore all the debt.

You know how much debt the average person has today? Shedloads.
 
I wasn't using inequality as a way of measuring poverty. I was using actual poverty as a way of measuring poverty and mentioning the increasing inequality as a cause.

Poverty is the state of not having enough material possessions or income for a person's basic needs. Poverty may include social, economic, and political elements. Absolute poverty is the complete lack of the means necessary to meet basic personal needs, such as food, clothing, and shelter.

So more people are actually in that situation than in the past?
 
You only have to look at the housing market to see one way which we're most definitely not better off.

Today we saddle people with hundreds of thousands of debt which takes an entire lifetime to pay off. Many (most?) people entering the housing market today will be paying off their mortgage for 30-40 years or more.

I'm not quite sure that makes us richer. We might well be better off in some regards, but not richer, unless you want to ignore all the debt.

You know how much debt the average person has today? Shedloads.

As you said yourself, money is only a means to an end. Are people's homes on average less fit for purpose than in the past?

For the record, I've been as vocal as anyone in the past about the problems caused by loose monetary policy and increasing debt. But to hold up our economy as an example of how most people get poorer under capitalism is just crap I'm afraid.
 
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