Capitalist Vigilantes

R.P.L said:
As you said yourself, money is only a means to an end. Are people's homes on average less fit for purpose than in the past?

For the record, I've been as vocal as anyone in the past about the problems caused by loose monetary policy and increasing debt. But to hold up our economy as an example of how most people get poorer under capitalism is just crap I'm afraid.
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Well slavery is perfectly possible in a capitalist system, isn't it.

So are workhouses and debters prisons and all the other stuff we've since abolished.

What we have today is a more socialist edge to blunt the amorality of capitalism. Capitalism doesn't care if anybody lives or dies.

But who said "most people get poorer under capitalism" tho?
 
FoxEye said:
Well slavery is perfectly possible in a capitalist system, isn't it.

So are workhouses and debters prisons and all the other stuff we've since abolished.

What we have today is a more socialist edge to blunt the amorality of capitalism. Capitalism doesn't care if anybody lives or dies.

But who said "most people get poorer under capitalism" tho?
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You said that it's not possible for everyone to get richer. I'm saying that's not true.

And yes, slavery is possible anywhere. I'm not sure what your point is though - any sensible society has outlawed it. At least it's not mandatory as it is in certain other systems ;)
 
Narj said:
I'd rather the markets didn't come crashing down as that's all of our pensions potentially stuffed.

The markets just need to work for everyone. At the moment it's alright when me or you lose our shirts, but some of these firms whose clients have millions/billions to invest are obviously playing by different rules and get bailed out and a slap on the wrist when it goes wrong.

I really hope this triggers a reset and some people actually go to jail. I don't know if the political will is there in the US at least, I'm off to research many hedge fund donors there were for both campaigns...
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the market you are referring to is a different market these hedge funds work in.

the normal stock and equity market is the long position.

hedge fund operates in long as well as short postions. hedge fund is normally financially funded by wealthy individuals or private companies/organisations/trust/soveriegn wealth. if they go under, there will be limited impact on wider markets. however a hedge fund can also be operating normal fund management like what Woodward did, so if the whole company folds then its normally operated funds can go with it therefore putting normal people's investment at risk.

Hedge fund is a necessary evil of the market. without them you will have a lot of accounting fraud, bad take overs or mergers, crappy deals, waste and excess at executive level. but there should be limits to what they are able to do, especially speculations. I often get flashs of news X fund has taken up £££mil short positon on Y company. these sort of behaviour is designed to cause mass panick and therefore self fulfilling short positon of the hedge.
 
dowie said:
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one tbh... as it is just going round in circles, I don't see why work should either simply vanish or in your argument become incredibly scarce because current work can be made more efficient, that simply frees people up to do other things, it doesn't remove the fact that so long as we have money and systems of trade you can pay others to do *something*.
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And I don't see why mass employment should exist as status symbol servants for people, fashionable artists or mysterious and completely unexplained "other things".

So yes, we're going to have to agree to disagree. Time will tell.
 
R.P.L said:
You said that it's not possible for everyone to get richer. I'm saying that's not true.

And yes, slavery is possible anywhere. I'm not sure what your point is though - any sensible society has outlawed it. At least it's not mandatory as it is in certain other systems ;)
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The point is, it's quite possible (and indeed has been the case in the past) for capitalism to impoverish the majority for the benefit of the few.

The best possible system is benevolent dictatorship. But since humans are so easily corruptible that would have to be a benevolent AI, or the Klingons, or whatever else :p

Failing that, you're reliant on the benevolence of the people with the most power in the system, whatever that system may be.

Today we have a somewhat capitalist, somewhat democratic, somewhat socialist system that isn't perfect and could for sure be improved. But it's very, very doubtful that you would improve it by making it more capitalist. More socialist, sure. More democratic, sure. Making it more capitalist would imho see many more people entering poverty.

Today's system is also very clearly rigged to some extent so that the people at the top can't lose. I can lose everything and the system won't protect me. Hedge funds clearly can't lose everything. There are mechanisms to prevent that.
 
FoxEye said:
Today we have a somewhat capitalist, somewhat democratic, somewhat socialist system that isn't perfect and could for sure be improved. But it's very, very doubtful that you would improve it by making it more capitalist. More socialist, sure. More democratic, sure. Making it more capitalist would imho see many more people entering poverty.

Today's system is also very clearly rigged to some extent so that the people at the top can't lose. I can lose everything and the system won't protect me. Hedge funds clearly can't lose everything. There are mechanisms to prevent that.
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I agree that it can be improved. I think we probably have different ideas of what the ideal outcome is, and therefore what the solutions are. I would never have implemented central banks as they have been, having the power that they do to set the price of money (and indirectly everything else). It will be very difficult now to take them away though - I think it could only happen following a widespread collapse of the current system. It would solve many problems such as property prices though, and therefore probably stop people from looking at the current situation and thinking that it means that we need to turn to socialism.

We'll have to see what happens with the Gamestop situation. I would hope that the brokers who blocked the buy trades will receive some kind of punishment, although I won't hold my breath. It's scummy behaviour, but you're reaching a bit far to say that it's indicative of systemic abuse. Hedge funds can lose an awful lot (and have done in this instance).
 
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