Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics

[dowie]

Basically if the IBA had actually published what the changes were, and could show some kind of reasoning and discussion about it I suspect they might not have had their status as the regulating body removed.

The IBA and IOC spat had nothing to do with rules re: DSD athletes taking part or any lack of clarity on what those rules were.

You might want to check Algerias laws and general sentiment towards trans people before you make that claim

This is a DSD issue, you could argue that this individual is "trans" but it's not what is usually referred to as "trans"; a DSD person born in an underdeveloped male body, assigned "female" at birth and who still identifies as "female" socially is a different situation to someone who is born into a normal male body and later chooses to "transition" to female. In the latter case, that's where you might cite conservative laws of some Islamic countries but in the former case, it's not relevant.

You could argue that in both cases they're "trans" - in so far as they're biological men living as women but even Islamic countries need to deal with "intersex" or DSD people and they're dealt with at birth (or perhaps just go under the radar at birth even) ergo if they stay as they're "assigned at birth" there isn't any need to transition or get any change of gender or legal sex recognized ergo further legislation isn't needed.

So Algeria's laws/sentiment toward trans people are irrelevant as, in order to compete under IOC rules, this person clearly already has official documentation saying they're female - which indicates they've been legally recognised as female since birth in Algeria (even though they're biologically male).

 

[dowie]

So a person born a woman must be chemically forced into line but men who very likely dope with the help of their coaches to evade detection are completely and utterly alright? That's just ******* evil.

What do you mean by "born a woman"?

We're talking about biological males here.

Their (social) gender identity/chosen pronouns have no relevance to sports.

 

[dowie]

Hungarian girl gone 2 rounds with Imane. Behind on scorecard though. Probably needs a stoppage.

Both look similar size muscle wise, if anything Imane has smaller delts is it?

It's not really relevant, there are plenty of biological males out there with smaller delts etc.. than female Olympic boxers and female Olympic boxers can probably beat most men.

The issue here is the male advantage that biological males have - that lets some male person compete as an Olympic level female when in reality they'd only be an amateur/local club level male at best... simply because their penis didn't properly develop as a baby.

 

[dowie]

Don't conflate sex and gender FFS, that's why we have this madness, with the language the battleground.

Males can be women, males cannot be female.

Going off the topic anyway. This thread is nothing to do with trans and everything to do with sex advantages in sport.

That's an ideological issue and neither is inherently correct - it's perfectly legitimate to call her a man or a woman depending on one's ideological perspective and acceptance or rejection of modern gender ideology.

Also (biological) males can be (legally) female*, there are various factors at play here, that's why it's helpful to clarify with "biological male" or "not a biological woman" etc.

The cis/trans thing doesn't necessarily work here either as this person is both a biological male and a cis woman in so far as, according to gender ideology, she's not trans because she's "assigned female at birth".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*There are at least three different factors here:

social gender: whether someone is identified socially as a man, woman, enby etc..

legal sex: whether someone is legally recognised as "male" or "female" on their birth certificate, passport etc..

biological sex: what they actually are biologically in terms of reproductive organs etc.

In this case, this person's social gender is (maybe) woman (though like Semenya she seems to be acting/dressing like a bloke at times despite the chosen pronouns), their legal sex is female (it needs to be on their passport under IOC rules) and their biological sex is male.

 

[dowie]

What tests, doping etc will the Olympics use as now she is in medal fight shes getting tested. If she's male then surely she will be DQ'd

Have they announced they're testing her?

The previous announcement was that their regulations are based on the sex listed on a person's passport.

 

[dowie]

What you smoking mate?
Its not utterly alright, they get banned from competing as a result. If levels return to the accepted and appropriate averages, you can compete again.

Nah, they just shouldn't be competing in the female events if they're male IMO. Save for some of the conditions that don't involve being impacted by male puberty.

 

[dowie]

Thought they did once it reached medal stage? might be wrong but sure Ive heard/read it somewhere.

They didn't mention anything about that at the press conference, drop in a link though if you can find what you read.

I'm sure there's a bit more pressure on them re: this issue too:

Imane Khelif: Olympics should reintroduce sex testing in wake of Imane Khelif boxing row, UN adviser says

"We know that there are simple, efficient, dignified ways of testing sex," says Reem Alsalem, the UN's special rapporteur on violence against women and girls.

news.sky.com

Olympic chiefs should reintroduce sex testing for female athletes to protect them from injuries amid concerns about eligibility, a United Nations adviser told Sky News.

The intervention from Reem Alsalem, the UN's special rapporteur on violence against women and girls, comes as the Paris Games is embroiled in a debate about dangers from testosterone advantage in women's events.

Ms Alsalem has expressed concern that Italian boxer Angela Carini was exposed to violence based on her sex during a women's bout against Imane Khelif, who it has been claimed failed a gender eligibility test.

 

[dowie]

https://thesportjournal.org/article...ing-drug-testing-within-the-olympic-movement/

says every medal winner will get tested

What are you referring to there? You seemed to be talking about doping or something? Could you maybe quote the bit you're thinking of?

 

[dowie]

Legal Sex is a nonsense term - a technical kludge to pander to the trans activist lobby to allow their documents to reflect their own denial of reality.

In sports biology should be the ultimate arbiter of qualification to participate in classes. Weight is used to determine classes in contact sports for example. Being fast enough determines if you can qualify for Olympic running teams. Being female should be the screen for participation in the female sports class.

It might well be but the fact is that it exists and the IOC is using it - it exists in the UK too, we can refer to it. Ditto to the modern concept of gender - some people might think that's a nonsense term too when used in that context and have the opinion that, say trans women are men etc..

The point isn't what should or shouldn't be but simply what is.

Gender identity (as something separate from biology) exists, legal sex exists and biological sex exists - these are things that get conflated in this sort of discussion.

 

[dowie]

I guess Broadhurst from Ireland is also a man as no way a woman could beat Khelif even though she did 2 years ago.

You seem to have completely confused yourself here, I'd wager most Olympic female boxers could beat the absolute **** out of you - does that mean you're not a man?

 

[dowie]

This is what I don’t get, other than this alleged test there is no evidence in her performance or results that she has any sort of genetic advantage. Unless her genetic gifts are making up for the fact she’s not actually a boxer.

Other than two tests in CAS-approved laboratories showing she's a biological male?

Do you really not get that males have a huge advantage in most sports vs females?

It's not making up for the fact that she's not a boxer, her male advantage it's more making up for the fact that as a male she'd only be a local club-level amateur but because of the dumb IOC regs she's currently an Olympian by competing as a female.

 

[dowie]

Ah yes the reach to call a woman a woman based entirely on Russian propaganda, how very embarrassing.

Oh no how will I live with myself being right...

But the issue isn't about what she's called, it's about her being a biological male - her social gender as a woman is totally irrelevant. You're still completely confused about this issue.

 

[dowie]

Just watched her latest fight and I’m struggling to see any of the physical advantages many claim she has over the rest of the competition.

Certainly isn’t power or speed so unless her condition meant she grew Inspector Gadget arms the only differences are the scientific ones.

I think this is just a lack of understanding on your part - you could pair some Olympic-level females with a mediocre amateur male from some local club and you'd maybe see the same thing, there are no doubt thousands of male amateurs able to compete at a similar level.

The bit you've completely missed is that those mediocre local club-level amateurs shouldn't be anywhere near the Olympics and would only be in there if competing incorrectly in the female category. Whereas the females who are able to compete at that level are rather rarer and among the best female boxers in the world.

 

[dowie]

And I think there might be a lack of understanding on your part, the IOC make the rules, not you.

I'm not under any misunderstanding there thanks, just because a rule is in place doesn't make it right or immune from criticism.

You don't seem to understand the issue though given the comparison you're making and for the reasons outlined - the issue isn't that every single male should absolutely beat every single female including Olympians ergo your observations of the match and subjective opinion re: advantages or lack of is totally irrelevant.

The pack of lies seems to be having more of an impact on the brain-dead left who seem to think she's a biological woman.

I’m just sceptical of the quality/validity of the testing and would be hesitant to draw conclusions until the tests are reperformed by a governing body

CAS don’t approve laboratories and WADA approved laboratories (which I assume is what you mean but perhaps undermines your credibility) have not exactly been foolproof in the past.

The tests are performed by laboratories not governing bodies, which I assume is what you mean but if so you don't have an argument... as the issue relating to the IBA isn't relevant to that!

WDA accredits laboratories if you want to be super pedantic btw. point is these are labs acceptable to CAS and both athletes have declined to appeal for obvious reasons, your skepticism is misplaced and based on unrelated issues.

 

[dowie]

Algeria would have her in prison if she was trans.

You're still confused, she isn't "trans".

Biologically she's a male with a DSD condition, she's likely been legally "female" since birth.

I know it's a bit confusing at times but it has been covered in the thread a few times now and it's not really all that complicated.

 

[dowie]

Its in there

In-competition drug
testing occurs during a specified competition.

You're still talking about doping or drug testing - the issue here isn't drugs it's a biological male competing in the female category.

 

[dowie]

I assume you mean WADA? The same people who accredited the Russian lab that did a really good job of pumping out fake results for the Olympics?

Is there anything to suggest that the two labs that conducted the tests were Russian?

More to the point - if the test results were false then why didn't the athletes object to them/appeal to CAS?

It's pretty obvious what has happened and the arguments against are just people who seem confused about what has actually occurred (still thinking that the Algerian is a biological woman or the issue is about trans/not trans) or pointless attempts at muddying the waters that don't stand up to scrutiny; mention something about Russia and the IBA and ignore everything else.

 

[dowie]

My point was more that them being accredited doesn't make them infallible nevermind where they're based.

But no one claimed they were infallible.

It's a bit of a moot point when they were tested twice at two different labs *and* in addition to that, if the tests were wrong, they'd have grounds to appeal at CAS, and could have demanded further testing - pretty obvious why they're not doing so.

 

[dowie]

There are valid reasons why they may not appeal. They are banned from fighting in IBA sanctioned events but that’s rather moot if you’re fighting in other competitions, and possibly intend to go pro after the Olympics. The CAS process is likely to be expensive and drawn out and may ultimately have no bearing on their respective careers.

I am speculating, as you are, but it’s important to consider the alternatives.

Pure cope, again they failed testing twice from different labs... you guys are just making up nonsense because this has become a culture war topic.

An actual biological woman with a dodgy test result would have every reason to get another test done and object to the dodgy test, these people know full well that there isn't any point in doing that because they know the test results aren't the issue here.

One didn't bother appealing and the other initially went to appeal but withdrew it - they know full well that the details would be public as per Semenya.

 

[dowie]

You don't think there is even a little bit of skepticism that is warranted when a country known for cheating at sports says something?

You're still confused, about basically everything, he's pointing out that it's irrelevant to the point re: testing and lack of appeal to CAS - this has little to do with Russia, what do you think Russia has said that is relevant and what do you think the relevance is here?