Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics

[dowie]

And that's exactly what I've been asking you for all this time, yet you've only responded with the IAAF's own position on it, before dismissing and disregarding any opposition, ignoring further questioning, and then deflecting off into your Dowie Hole with misrepresentations, strawmen and witter about micropenises and amateur athletes from Kent.

You support the very dodgy IAAF position, but have not once substantiated it, and are seemingly now even upset when I do take the IAAF's line on it!.

Eh? You're well aware that I've directly asked you why several times, none of what I've said depends on the views of anyone else.

You're not taking the IAAF's line on it, are you? Instead of replying with whatever hangups you have about micropenises etc.. why not just address the question?

I would expect Caster Semenya OR ANY OTHER INTERSEX OLYMPIC LEVEL ATHLETE, who is alleged to have a confirmed "male advantage", to perform somewhere close to the 10-12% above ANY FEMALE OLYMPIC LEVEL ATHLETE

Why do *you* expect that? Are you able to answer or will you just reply with more deflection and some waffle about unnamed experts and vague claims about taking the IAAF position... I'm asking about the ttaskmaster position here.

No intersex athlete exhibits the advantage that the IAAF says they would/should

Can you show where the IAAF said Semenya would or should beat the very best few women in the world by 10-12%? I think you're drawing a dubious conclusion here yourself which is flawed for the reasons already explained and perhaps why you can't give a straight answer to it when questioned.

 

[dowie]

Why are you fixated on this 10-12% figure? You know the difference between the best male and female 100m sprinters is approx 9.65% right for example? Or that the difference between marathon runners is around 6.5%, 5k is 13%, Javelin the difference shoots up to 30%.

I did try to highlight this to him earlier... that he was comparing some general advantage to a specific event... but he kicked off. He still won't address why he'd expect to see Semenya beat the very best women in the world by 10%+

I don't think the penny has dropped yet that just because you might expect the very best men in the world to do that doesn't mean you'd necessarily expect the best intersex male to do so just as you'd not expect the best from some other much smaller subset of males like the best 800m runner in Kent.

 

[dowie]

Can you show where the IAAF said Semenya would or should beat the very best few women in the world by 10-12%? I think you're drawing a dubious conclusion here yourself which is flawed for the reasons already explained and perhaps why you can't give a straight answer to it when questioned.

As I suspected, you're drawing a dubious conclusion yourself the quotes below don't claim that she should beat the very best women in the world by 10-12%, they relate to males in general. Do you still not get the issue here?

"If a 46 XY DSD athlete's body can make use of the testosterone that it produces, then she has all the same advantages as a 46 XY man has over a 46 XX woman"
IAAF's own FAQ.

"Prior to male puberty there is little or no difference between male and female athletic performance. However, after the onset of puberty, male testosterone levels increase to around 15 nmol/L while female testosterone levels remain under 2 nmol/L. At the same time, males become 10-12% better at running events and 20% better in jumping events"
Prof. David Handelsman delivering the IAAF's submission in the 2018 case vs Semenya.

The average male can't beat the very best females in the world over 800m, the average male could beat the average female though!

So now to this point:

That's how it is generally presented - She's male, she's got testosterone, she's got bulging muscles, she's got balls (and a micro-peen, don't forget), and she's in the Olympics... If she's 100% male, but not an Olympic level athlete, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

She's only in the Olympics because she's competing in the female category. On what basis would you expect her to be among the very best males in the world?

You still can't seem to address that point or perhaps you genuinely don't understand it, you come back with the multi quotes waffling on but the crux of your argument seems to rest on a point that has a fundamental flaw to it.

 

[dowie]

Looks like the IOC still hasn't got a grip of this issue:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1819221121478144184

https://twitter.com/x/status/1818331425546158120

You'd think after the Semenya nonsense they'd have sorted out some better rules, sex testing can be done via a swab and these days I don't think there's much excuse - the athletes know full well what they are, possibly some of them initially thought they were normal girls and only learned they were biological males during puberty or something but by the time they've gotten to the Olympics they know full well and they're basically just cheats at this point.

The boxing thing is ridiculous, it's literally that SouthPark episode, not just a fairness issue but a safety issue too!

 

[dowie]

So it’s not having a womb, it’s not having a vagina or boobs, now the female divisions mean you can have no genetic advantages?

No apparently at this Oylmpics they mean you can be a male with a DSD condition and male advantages and still compete.

But really the Female divisions should be for Female athletes not males who identify as women (trans or intersex).

Fine perhaps with some DSD conditions where the condition doesn't confer male advantages and maybe an argument for sports like darts and snooker but with athletics there's an obvious fairness issue and with sports like Boxing there's an obvious safety issue too.

So, two players scored five goals between them in one game?

That's not that unusual.

What makes you think the number of goals they scored is the unusual thing here?

 

[dowie]

The whole imane boxing thing seems a bit over blown. If I understand correctly she was born female and has all female parts but has high test? Yet people are calling her trans etc when she isn’t.

This is part of the problem, the reporting on this stuff tends to be sensitive so they'll be subtle and refer to her as a woman with high testosterone or something and that leads people to think that rules are very unfair, comparisons with people being tall in basketball etc..

But she's only a woman in the polite gender identity sense, in reality, it seems she's a biological male whose bits didn't develop properly. That someone wants to identify as a woman and was raised as one out of convenience because of a medical condition isn't a good reason to let them compete as one when they're biologically a male.

It's a tricky subject really. If they're born as a woman but have, naturally occurring, higher levels of testosterone then I think it would be unfair to say that can't compete against women.

In sports Athletes at the pointy end often have some form of natural advantage over their competitors and if you want to draw up an arbitrary number, someone is going to miss out.

They're not born as a woman though - they're referred to as a woman because that's the gender identity they choose to use, they're a biological male.

 

[dowie]

But then the dudes will have a biological advantage against her?

Just as they'd have against many other males who aren't Olympic-level boxers.

So what? She's a male, she has male advantages, why should people (males with DSD conditions) who'd otherwise just be gifted amateurs/local club-level athletes get to compete in the Olympics by virtue of identifying as women?

Whether they're trans and identifying as women out of some underlying desire or mental condition or whether they're intersex and identifying as women because that was convenient as a result of their malformed private they're still biological males and should be competing with other males for obvious reasons.

 

[dowie]

Now I’m not saying she doesn’t have some gender advantages, but she doesn’t have a dick and balls as far as I know.

She probably does have balls, that's the underlying issue here - she's male and the balls are part of the advantage.

Babies start out looking female in the womb - both males and females will have a hole, the female ones develop ovaries, uterus etc.. the male ones develop testes and grow a ball sack over the hole. The clit on the females becomes a penis on the males.

Buy some male (XY) babies have a few errors on their chromosomes and don't properly develop a penis and/or grow a ball sack to cover the hole - they might have what looks like a large clit or micropeen and still have an opening that looks a bit like a female vagina. Their balls won't drop as they should do in male children but can stay inside them... they'll still go through male puberty and get male athletic advantages.

They're not female, they don't have a womb or eggs, they just have a hole because their male bits didn't fully develop or partially develop. So socially it's often been the case that they're raised as if they're female, they identify as girls/women even though they're not biologically so.

The fact that they don't have a properly developed penis isn't relevant to athletics though - the fact that they've still got a pair of balls and are still sensitive to testosterone and are males and have male advantages is the relevant factor here... the very reason we have separate male and female events in most sports!

 

[dowie]

If that is factually true then I would agree but people seem to be saying otherwise.

She's failed sex testing by the IBA and didn't appeal to the CAS for obvious reasons.

The IOC on the other hand has released some statement about their criteria being the sex on people's passports.

And various people have been either putting forth or attacking some other irrelevant trans argument or pointing out that Algeira isn't friendly to trans or gays... problem is Algeira will still have DSD people and obvs if she's been identified as female since birth then there is no "transition" thus not "trans", she's been (legally) "Female" all her life while being (biologically) "Male".

Most of the confusion over this is because of concerns/sensitivities about the individual athletes but in reality they know full well what they are and have chosen to put themselves in this positon regardless (she's disqualified from the World Championships because she's male) so perhaps the reporting needs to be clearer and a bit more condemnatino thrown their way instead of pussyfooting around the subject.

It was the same with Semenya where loads of people were confused - "but she's a strong African Woman, she's not trans, Michael Phelps has long limbs" etc.. all missing the point that she's male.

 

[dowie]

Female 'bits' from what i've read and i haven't seen anything that mentions undeveloped male genitals.

And that's the problem with the reporting on this - it leads to confusion. She's male, she doesn't really have female bits, he junk might look a bit similar to that of a female because of her genetic abnormality but that's got little relevance here - the relevant part is the male advantage/male bits (testes).

 

[dowie]

This is the bit that blurs the lines for everybody, the IBA being an organisation accused of corruption, led by a Russian, that the IOC have binned off and various national boxing federations have left behind to join 'World Boxing' instead - who have carried out a test that they won't give any details of due to 'confidentiality', days after Imane defeated a Russian competitor at the World Championships. It doesn't feel like the most reliable of sources really.

If there was corruption or a flawed test w.r.t her specific instance then she could just take another test and appeal via the CAS, she's chosen to drop any appeal for obvious reasons.

 

[dowie]

You been and had a look? You're assuming/guessing/going off whatever is being reported somewhere the same as everyone else.

She's failed a sex test and is banned from the world championships because she's male, it's not just guessing that she looks like a bloke, she's an XY male with a DSD condition.

She's competing in the Olympics because the IOC seemingly isn't considering sex verification testing on boxers.

 

[dowie]

But that doesn't suggest she "doesn't really have female bits" and more that you're assuming, which is the problem.

Yes, it does.

Imane Khelif is not trans though.

Depends how you define trans really, but the issue is that she's a biological male regardless of her current social gender identity and/or whether she's been assigned that social or legal gender identity since birth.

The issue for athletics is what she actually is biologically not socially or via some legal recognition on her passport.

Where do we stop if we start banning people for a genetic advantage? Should we stop black people being runners? Should we stop tall people playing Basketball? Stop the Brock Lesnars of the World doing amateur wrestling?

WTF are you smoking - we already ban males from competing in female events because of their male genetic advantage.

In addition to separate male and female events we have the following too:

We have age categories.

We have weight classes in some sports.

And we have separate categories for disabilities.

You can't self-identify your way into those categories, they're dependent on what you actually are.

 

[dowie]

I'm well aware, but there's no value in wasting any extra effort on it with people spending no effort calling a woman a man without evidence.

Who is calling her a man? She can identify as whatever she wants under modern gender ideology, the issue is with her being a biological male, not with her being a "woman" in the modern sense of the word.

 

[dowie]

All but blowing up all the arguments for women when someone born with all the parts isn't one, so what's a woman then?

What are you talking about? You're replying to a post where I'm saying she is a woman. She doesn't have the parts, woman today refers to some modern concept of social/gender identity.

 

[dowie]

She didn't take that much of a beating... I don't really understand the logic in spending so long training to give up on a principle.
Take the beating, try, lose and then moan.. You never know, you might win.

Obvious safety issue - the male person shouldn't be competing and the other athlete shouldn't need to take a beating from a male person.

 

[dowie]

I'm clearly arguing from a binary perspective?

We're also talking about a country that literally makes being openly gay illegal.

What are you arguing and what does being gay have to do with any of this?

Reports i've read state that she does indeed have "female bits".

What reports say that?

Do you have a source that backs up your statement that she "doesn't really have female bits"?

The IBA, she failed two chromosome tests, she's an XY male with DSD which clearly gives her an athletic advantage, she obviously won't have female bits.

If you're stating Khleif has a genetic advantage, then how is that some athletes with genetic advantages* is fair but others are not? Where exactly are you drawing the line and why?

There are various obvious lines to draw - if you're unfamiliar with the sport boxing has weight classes for example, the line is the boundaries for those weight classes.

Some events have age ranges, so there's another line drawn - the age range.

Some events might be held for disabled athletes - so there's another line - does the competitor have the relevant disability?

And now there are the male/female events... it seems pretty sensible to have separate male and female events with boxing as there is an obvious safety issue in addition to fairness issues. There might be some exceptions where someone is intersex with no impact on performance but that doesn't appear to be the case here or with the original issues with Semenya.

 

[dowie]

@dowie are they actually a man? Everything I've seen just refers to a pair of tests that have now been disavowed. Has there been any other testing? I mean...dude looks like a lady and all that but *shrug*

The tests haven't been disavowed - one boxer declined to appeal and the other boxer did put in an appeal and then withdrew it, they've both left the ruling unchallenged for a reason.

The IOC has had a spat with the IBA and the IOC itself has stopped doing sex verification, the replacement for the IBA has some bizarre rule re: whatever sex is in a competitor's passport (which could allow for trans competitors too AFAIK).

There are many conflicting reports to what tests she had done, plus they wrote this in their statement

Point to note, the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential.

If it was confidential how do we know she failed xy chromosome test.

This statement never mentions xy stuff.

https://www.iba.sport/news/statemen...fications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

Correct it wasn't a testosterone test, it would have been a PCR test, the head of the IBA announced they were XY. We know they're not XX because they failed the tests by two independent laboratories, if they were XX they'd not have this issue.

 

[dowie]

LeBron has a significant and unfair advantage over his opponents, should he be forbidden from competing?

So do you not think there should be separate male and female events since elite male athletes have advantages over lesser male athletes?

Should there not be age ranges either?

Scrap the Paralympics too?

What are you actually arguing here - no separate categories because even with categories you can claim other advantages - just leave any competitive sport to men mostly in their 20s?

 

[dowie]

Did anyone raise concerns prior to an arbitrary decision being taken by one person at a disgraced governing body? Hint: no.

Hint - yes.

International Olympic Committee Was Warned About Male Boxers, World Boxing Organization Vice President Says - Reduxx

A Hungarian sports official has come out and stated that Algerian boxer Imane Khelif is not female. István Kovács, the European Vice President of the World Boxing Organization and former Secretary General of the International Boxing Association, told Hungarian press that he had warned the...

reduxx.info

István Kovács, the European Vice President of the World Boxing Organization and former Secretary General of the International Boxing Association, told Hungarian press that he had warned the International Olympic Committee about males participating in women’s boxing as early as 2022, but that nothing was done.

And FML it's hardly "arbitrary" to state that laboratory tests confirm they're male, it's an evidence-based decision. Males shouldn't be competing in the female event, especially in boxing!

There isn't just a fairness issue there but also a basic safety issue too. Also, I don't doubt Russia might like to milk these situations but these were tests carried out by two labs and the competitors didn't pursue it (one initially did but then dropped the case) at the CAS.

The IOC has determined she has met their gender eligibility criteria for this games.

Note you don't say what that criteria is because it's comically inept of them - the "gender criteria" in this case is simply; what does it say in their passport?

So a male born with a DSD condition gives them male advantages, whereby externally their private parts appear female or ambiguous looking, gets recorded as female on a birth certificate (either by mistake or because it's decided that's what's best for their condition) ends up being officially "female".

The darker side of this is that in some countries, because of the ineptness of international sporting bodies at handling this stuff, these sorts of people may well be encouraged to compete because of their advantages as males - they may only need someone at a male gifted amateur level to have a shot at female Olympic level events.