Cats/Running

[estebanrey]

You're trying to justify comparing apples to oranges by comparing apples to apples. You are still missing the point bud.

So spell it out to me, what point am i missing?

* You posted a video of a group of hunters chasing down a Kudu which has a high top speed.

* I point out that a cat and a kudu have much different builds, the kudu is larger and heavier than the human so will of course eventually tire before him, but a cat is much smaller and lighter than a human so will be able to maintain (in the rules of kwerks game) it's energy longer than the human (as well as being fatser than him in the first place).

* You reply saying a kudu was built for endurance because it was large and muscly.

* I point out that in fact endurance animals tend to be lighter and muscle power is more for speed than endurance.

Once the animal is exhausted, it will no longer be evasive.

Which you are basing off the logic that all animals would act like the kudu in the video you showed. I don't think it would.

 

["andy"]

and 100 metres runners usually have a bodybuilder's build. Do please ask your biologist how that is the case?

its only the arms and legs that propel them though and a cat has those ticked off without having to carry the extra weight of 'waste' muscles that a 100m runner would have built up as a side effect

 

[aln]

So spell it out to me, what point am i missing?

* You posted a video of a group of hunters chasing down a Kudu which has a high top speed.

* I point out that a cat and a kudu have much different builds, the kudu is larger and heavier than the human so will of course eventually tire before him, but a cat is much smaller and lighter than a human so will be able to maintain (in the rules of kwerks game) it's energy longer than the human (as well as being fatser than him in the first place).

* You reply saying a kudu was built for endurance because it was large and muscly.

* I point out that in fact endurance animals tend to be lighter and muscle power is more for speed than endurance.




Which you are basing off the logic that all animals would act like the kudu in the video you showed. I don't think it would.

You aren't actually using logic. You cannot compare the weighs of an animal alone when I'm talking about their hearts dying. You are simplifying something complicated to stupid proportions so it no longer reflects reality.

Ever seen a bird drop dead of a heart attack? How the **** does that happen when they're so small and light? Thats the ridiculous type of logic you're arguing.

What do you think a cat do would differently? You honestly don't think a cat would tire from running all day?

 

[estebanrey]

its only the arms and legs that propel them though and a cat has those ticked off without having to carry the extra weight of 'waste' muscles that a 100m runner would have built up as a side effect

I agree with you, it's aln that doesn't.

IMO a cat is both faster and would have more endurance (under the rules of Kwerk's scenario) than the human.

I know if a cat and a human were to run continuously for as far as they could the human would win. But in kwerk's example I reckon the cat would just run 30-40 metres, wait for you to catch up (in which time it's regaining its energy) then run off again. You are constantly moving whereas it is moving, getting rest then moving again which cancels out the humans endurance advantage when both are constantly moving.

I have a cat that simply won't let you catch him once he's outdoors, I don't have a cat flap so if I'm going out for a long period I need to get him in and he is a nightmare. He'll let you get around 2 metres from him then he'll bolt off, run 10-15 metres and just stop and wait again, you go up to him and repeat.

I've spent hours trying to catch him before and I'm convinced it's impossible, a cat always has a small enough burst of energy in him to escape you and being small and light the enregy needed by the cat isn't a lot.

That's why comparing it to a man catching a kudu (as argued by aln) is flawed, the kudu needs a lot of energy to get it's big heavy body going and that's why you can tire it out by just chasing it for long enough, using that tactic on a domestic cat is a whole different ball game IMO.

 

[aln]

I agree with you, it's aln that doesn't.

IMO a cat is both faster and would have more endurance (under the rules of Kwerk's scenario) than the human.

I know if a cat and a human were to run continuously for as far as they could the human would win. But in kwerk's example I reckon the cat would just run 30-40 metres, wait for you to catch up (in which time it's regaining its energy) then run off again. You are constantly moving whereas it is moving, getting rest then moving again which cancels out the humans endurance advantage when both are constantly moving.

I have a cat that simply won't let you catch him once he's outdoors, I don't have a cat flap so if I'm going out for a long period I need to get him in and he is a nightmare. He'll let you get around 2 metres from him then he'll bolt off, run 10-15 metres and just stop and wait again, you go up to him and repeat.

I've spent hours trying to catch him before and I'm convinced it's impossible, a cat always has a small enough burst of energy in him to escape you and being small and light the enregy needed by the cat isn't a lot.

That's why comparing it to a man catching a kudu (as argued by aln) is flawed, the kudu needs a lot of energy to get it's big heavy body going and that's why you can tire it out by just chasing it for long enough, using that tactic on a domestic cat is a whole different ball game IMO.

So you've literally chased a cat for 10 hours and lost?

How about you go outside, run as fast as you can for 10 seconds, wait one minute, sprint again, repeat the process and come back here and tell me you're some miracle of nature that never tires. Or is it just cats who are as good as new with a moments rest?

Your kudu point doesn't really work either. A cat is a lot smaller to expends less energy in movement. Sure, I won't argue with that. A animal the size of a cat doesn't store as much energy as a kudu though, so making your direct comparison doesn't make sense.

 

[estebanrey]

You aren't actually using logic. You cannot compare the weighs of an animal alone when I'm talking about their hearts dying. You are simplifying something complicated to stupid proportions so it no longer reflects reality.

You claimed a kudu is "built for endurance" because of it's "strong body", that was the point I was arguing. Your 'heart attack' point is a completely different issue.

Ever seen a bird drop dead of a heart attack?

No actually I haven't. I've probably seen a bird drop dead but not being a character in CSI Maasai Mara I don't tend to know the cause of death when I see a dead animal.

How the **** does that happen when they're so small and light? Thats the ridiculous type of logic you're arguing.

Please show me where I said that small animals are incapable of having heart attacks.

What do you think a cat do would differently? You honestly don't think a cat would tire from running all day?

This just shows you are missing my point that cat wouldn't have to run 'all day' only in short bursts, the human would be running all day. I said above that in a marathon, there is no chance a cat would beat a human, but in a game of catching a cat where you can stop and start, change direction etc I don't think the human would ever be able to catch a determined cat.

 

[aln]

You claimed a kudu is "built for endurance" because of it's "strong body", that was the point I was arguing. Your 'heart attack' point is a completely different issue.

As it it probably has the ability to store vast quantities of energy and its not a hunter, it won't need the ability to expend vast bursts of energy and thus probably won't spend its load in seconds.

It's like comparing high end business class merc to a ford fiesta. I wouldn't be completely surprised if the fiesta got more MPG but that doesn't guarantee a greater distance on a full tank since the merc would probably have a much larger tank.

Yeah I car anaologied the thread, np's!

No actually I haven't. I've probably seen a bird drop dead but not being a character in CSI Maasai Mara I don't tend to know the cause of death when I see a dead animal.

Next time your cat brings one in, keep it in a box and make lots of noise. It'll be fairly clear why it dies. Better still, don't, because thats mean.

Please show me where I said that small animals are incapable of having heart attacks.

But its small, so you know, thats all that matters, no?

This just shows you are missing my point that cat wouldn't have to run 'all day' only in short bursts, the human would be running all day. I said above that in a marathon, there is no chance a cat would beat a human, but in a game of catching a cat where you can stop and start, change direction etc I don't think the human would ever be able to catch a determined cat.

As I said:

How about you go outside, run as fast as you can for 10 seconds, wait one minute, sprint again, repeat the process and come back here and tell me you're some miracle of nature that never tires. Or is it just cats who are as good as new with a moments rest?


Go prove to yourself that short rests give you full recovery.

 

[estebanrey]

So you've literally chased a cat for 10 hours and lost?

Have you chased one for 10 hours and won? If not your question is a little silly.

How about you go outside, run as fast as you can for 10 seconds, wait one minute, sprint again, repeat the process and come back here and tell me you're some miracle of nature that never tires. Or is it just cats who are as good as new with a moments rest?

I'm not debating this anymore unless you can actually what I'm saying and stop making up strawmen. I've never said a cat doesn't tire or that stopping after a quick burst makes you regain all you energy.

My point is it can regain 'enough' of it's energy in that time to cancel out the humans general endurance advantage.

A human could easily beat a cat when it comes to endurance measured by length, as I keep saying a human would beat a cat anyday at a marathon. But we are not talking about a marathon or an event where both animals are being exhausted of energy continually at the same time, in this secnario the human would be continually moving where the cat would be moving, stopping, moving stopping. The human's energy is being zapped all the time, the cats endurance though, whilst being smaller is being given constant replenishment.

Your kudu point doesn't really work either. A cat is a lot smaller to expends less energy in movement. Sure, I won't argue with that. A animal the size of a cat doesn't store as much energy as a kudu though, so making your direct comparison doesn't make sense.

It doesn't store as much energy because it uses a lot less due to it's weight and size. That's like saying a Volvo Estate would drive further on a full tank than a Vauxhall Corsa because it has a bigger tank ignoring the fact the Corsa would be much more efficient due to it's lighter weight.

 

[aln]

Have you chased one for 10 hours and won? If not your question is a little silly.

Its not silly because I'm not the one trying to use personal experience to justify my opinion of "it's small, therefore it wins".

I'm not debating this anymore unless you can actually what I'm saying and stop making up strawmen. I've never said a cat doesn't tire or that stopping after a quick burst makes you regain all you energy.

Well done, we all saw MITM. That doesn't make you sound clever.

My point is it can regain 'enough' of it's energy in that time to cancel out the humans general endurance advantage.

A human could easily beat a cat when it comes to endurance measured by length, as I keep saying a human would beat a cat anyday at a marathon. But we are not talking about a marathon or an event where both animals are being exhausted of energy continually at the same time, in this secnario the human would be continually moving where the cat would be moving, stopping, moving stopping. The human's energy is being zapped all the time, the cats shorter endurance the endurance though, whilst being smaller is being given constant replenishment.

As long as the cat is incapable of completely replenishing its fitness during the breaks then every time you cause it to move, it has less ability to move than the time before. This is all you really need to know about the scenario. Sure you can still assume the human would drop first ( I very much doubt it ) but thats really a different argument to "a cat is light and has a rest period" we previously seemed to be having.

It doesn't store as much energy because it uses a lot less due to it's weight and size. That's like saying a Volvo Estate would drive further on a full tank than a Vauxhall Corsa because it has a bigger tank ignoring the fact the Corsa would be much more efficient due to it's lighter weight.

Stating the Cosra would be much more efficient would be missing the point if you wanted to know which one would do a further distance without a refuel though.

 

[manic111]

I've run long distance myself.

Cats are too quick on their feet. It isn't about straight line speed.

You need to be quick enough, nimble enough, have enough stamina and have enough dexterity whilst moving.

Just not possible.

I agree - it can be hard enough to catch a cat in a small room, let alone a large field.

 

[estebanrey]

Its not silly because I'm not the one trying to use personal experience to justify my opinion of "it's small, therefore it wins".

No you're using evidence of endurance hunters catching large, heavy animals and trying to ignore the physical attributes of what they're hunting.

Well done, we all saw MITM. That doesn't make you sound clever.

I don't even know what MITM is.

As long as the cat is incapable of completely replenishing its fitness during the breaks then every time you cause it to move, it has less ability to move than the time before. This is all you really need to know about the scenario. Sure you can still assume the human would drop first ( I very much doubt it ) but thats really a different argument to "a cat is light and has a rest period" we previously seemed to be having.

It's not about 'dropping' first, it's about a human getting a cat into a position where it doesn't even have the energy to avoid you picking it up. I think a cat will always have that little bit of energy, no matter how long you chase it for.

 

[JonJ678]

Well, I know my dog can outrun me. Really comprehensively. On the basis that a cat is essentially a small dog, I'm sure the cat would outrun me too. Also a horse, I couldn't run down a horse either.

I'd like to say four legs are better than two. However I think a stronger argument is that the cat, who spends most of its time scampering about outside killing things, is rather fitter than the guy who spent the weekend trying to cope with parallel programming.

Maybe I could catch a fat, lazy cat.

 

[gillywibble]

On the basis that a cat is essentially a small dog.

Genius.

 

[JonJ678]

Cat = dog is slightly provocative I know, given differences in personality and so forth.

Biomechanically they're essentially the same system though. Distribution of muscle and tendon is very similar in each species, diet is similar, mechanics of running are the same.

 

[holymonk]

He couldnt catch fenton.

 

[aln]

No you're using evidence of endurance hunters catching large, heavy animals and trying to ignore the physical attributes of what they're hunting.

You're the one ignoring physical attributes. You think weight can be independently assessed while ignoring everything else about the animals.

It's not about 'dropping' first, it's about a human getting a cat into a position where it doesn't even have the energy to avoid you picking it up. I think a cat will always have that little bit of energy, no matter how long you chase it for.

It's entirely about dropping first. Once you're out of energy, you collapse. There aren't little tiny bit of reserves that keep you going. You get rubber legs and you fall over. You need sleep, water and food to change that equation. I actually think it'd be hilarious watching a cat do that, for the record.

 

[Gilly]

Even so I'd like to see a human against a Siberian husky which can run at around 12 mph for 6 hours a day (they do this for 11 days straight in the Iditarod sled race) or an Arabian horse which can run 60 miles at 16 mph.

Wolf? Kangaroo? Ostrich? Brown hare?

They go too fast and too far for us to keep up. You'd lose sight of them before they got tired enough to be kept up with.

 

[estebanrey]

You're the one ignoring physical attributes. You think weight can be independently assessed while ignoring everything else about the animals.

Eh?

My argument is that you can't compare a human running down a kudu with a human trying to run down a cat and the size of the animal plays a part in why that direct comparison is flawed.

So how am I the one ignoring physical attributes? Your argument seems to be if a man can catch a kudu he can catch a cat, which IMO is too simplistic and ignores the differences between the animals and the situation.

It's entirely about dropping first. Once you're out of energy, you collapse. There aren't little tiny bit of reserves that keep you going. You get rubber legs and you fall over. You need sleep, water and food to change that equation. I actually think it'd be hilarious watching a cat do that, for the record.

But I don't think to would ever get to that point. The human would just give up long before the cat did or either got 'jelly legs'.

 

[MrMoonX]

Humans are the only animal that can run distances. Theres a really interesting take on this in the book born to run. Humans can beat any animal on earth over an endurance distance even a cheetah will be screwed after 500 yds, according to the science this is due to a tendon in our necks and the ability to sweat.

so basically you could take the cat over a mile, as it will need to stop to cool down after a short distance, where as we can keep going as our bodies dont need to stop to cool down.

 

[estebanrey]

Humans are the only animal that can run distances. Theres a really interesting take on this in the book born to run. Humans can beat any animal on earth over an endurance distance

Most animals, not all.

Show me a human that can 60 miles at an average of 16 mph like an Arabian Horse can or do 6 hours of straight running at 12 mph for 11 days straight like a Siberan Husky can.