Chris Roberts on Mantle:DX12 is basically the same

[humbug]

Yes not allowing for special deal's from promotions i do think the extra coding would have been put into the end price.
Ask yourself this , As a dev basicaly you have to for a market share code in DX,(which is why u dont see mantle only games out there) If you also have to hire people for mantle and/or any other API's gpu venders want done wouldnt you add this to the final cost or would you simply do it for free?
I know as a business person myself i'd be adding it

I don't think one guy and a few months is going add to much if anything to the cost.

At the end of the day its those buying, not selling who dictate the price. if people are happy to pay it they will, if not....

 

[triss]

I don't think one guy and a few months is going add to much if anything to the cost.

At the end of the day its those buying, not selling who dictate the price. if people are happy to pay it they will, if not....

Willingness to pay doesnt mean there wasnt a extra cost its still being passed on.

Sadly GPU pricing also doesnt agree with your theory you might of noticed AMD/Nvidia set prices aswell as retailers otherwise we would all be buying top end cards for 20 pounds As i'm sure its what most buyers would like to pay

 

[humbug]

Willingness to pay doesnt mean there wasnt a extra cost its still being passed on.

Sadly GPU pricing also doesnt agree with your theory you might of noticed AMD/Nvidia set prices aswell as retailers otherwise we would all be buying top end cards for 20 pounds As i'm sure its what most buyers would like to pay

Your argument also applies to PhysX, does that add cost? yes. should they stop making PhysX games? no.

As for GPU's, on one site my 290 was £320, another £340 and another £300, guess where i got it from.

 

[triss]

Your argument also applies to PhysX, does that add cost? yes. should they stop making PhysX games? no.

As for GPU's, on one site my 290 was 320, another £340 and another £300, guess where i got it from.

Did you walk in tell the company you were willing to pay £20 and walk out with it therefore setting the price Or did you pay what price a Seller was charging?

Yes i dont agree with any proprietary coding costs tbh,
I dont see why AMD users should pay for Nvidia coding like that or why Nvidia users should pay for mantle coding Or in the future if Nvidia goes for its own API why AMD users should pay for that

 

[humbug]

Did you walk in tell the company you were willing to pay £20 and walk out with it therefore setting the price Or did you pay what price a Seller was charging?

Yes i dont agree with any proprietary coding costs tbh,
I dont see why AMD users should pay for Nvidia coding like that or why Nvidia users should pay for mantle coding Or in the future if Nvidia goes for its own API why AMD users should pay for that

Proprietary tech is nothing to do with Game developers, thats the GPU vendors themselves.

It would be great if PhysX ran on AMD and Mantle ran on Nvidia, thats what Developers want, they can't get what they want so the reality is you and i may well end up paying for something we cannot use.

So, What would you like to have? would you like tech advancement to halt because it might add £1 to the price of your game?

 

[triss]

Biggest problem i see with Mantle vs dx 12 is the cost to Dev's if every GPU vendor has a API to be coded for. I'd prefer one for all sort of deal but i can see its not going to happen and end of the day those costs will be passed onto "us" the end users

Please explain there where i mentioned stopping tech advancements?

Proprietary tech like physic and mantle have a lot to do with game Dev's who do you think codes it in?

Tressfx works for all iirc and if it costs a extra £1 or 5 is fine with me


I would like all the cool features to be able to run on all cards, And to be charged for what i can use on my system
i just dont like the industry fragmenting into separate ways sorry if that offends you it wasnt my intent

 

[flopper]

Mantle seems to be easy to implement, developer like it, wont go away and in a year it be better.

 

[Silent_Scone]

I hope people now realise that's why Mantle has been a relative success for AMD users (if it was coded as an industry open standard and AMD expected Nvidia to jump on it, then it wouldn't be as efficient and would suffer the same problems as DirectX 11 suffers now).

Not really, if NV submitted Mantle code they could also do so for specific architecture where as DX11 currently has a growing string of hardware support. Unfortunately NV as we know will never submit anything. Which is why I find all the comparisons completely pointless. Mantle will remain relevant to the users on it's supporting hardware and for the games it supports but is far removed from DX for both good and bad reasons

 

[Boomstick777]

MS take PC gamers for granted..
MS frankly don't want to make the effort if they can't have it all their way...

Much whingy comments. Such negativity..

MS been bringing us Windows, API's and even games for what? the past 20 years, but take PC gamers for granted.. Yeah ok then

DX12 looks awesome. MS trying to stay relevant and give PC gamers what they want, but it's not enough for the terminally negative..

AMD make an proprietary API (GCN only) to relieve the bottleneck that is their own CPU's. They are praised.. Are they doing this out of love or to keep their CPU's relevant while they don't have new hardware to compete with Intel..

MS design new API to bring things closer to the metal and somehow they don't care about gamers... Lol.

All these business want is your money. AMD is no more your friend than MS or Nvidia. They all want to stay relevant, you can't say one is bad but one is not. It's all the same...

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

I don't expect DX12 to perform quite as well as Mantle, but I also don't think it has to. If it can do maybe 90% of Mantle's performance but work on all gaming cards rather than just AMD ones, I'd be happy with that. I'd rather have that as a standard than have lots of separate APIs.
The other option would be for Nvidia to develop their own API and help to fragment the market more (unless all games that supported one supported the other). Then we might be in a place where there is quite a divide between TWIMTBP titles and Gaming Evolved titles and there's already enough moaning about some games running much better on one vendor than the other.
Or Nvidia and MS could work closely together to make DX12 work nearly as well on Nvidia cards as Mantle does on AMD, while still having some level of support for AMD (to help it become the main/leading API. But I think this would have the same effect and people would probably moan, especially if some developers released some games with only DX12 support.

It's a bit like PhysX. While it may (I don't know) be the best or most powerful physics engine, I'd rather something like Havok (for example) became an industry standard. Better than AMD releasing a physics API of their own and fragmenting the market if both weren't supported in all games.

I think G-Sync and 'Freesync' are slightly different as, from what I understand, they don't specifically require game support. That said, a standard would be nice.

Basically for me, since I have no brand loyalty and don't know which vendor I'll buy before I buy it, it would be nice not to worry that my monitor won't be supported if I switch vendors or these games won't play nearly as well if I switch vendor.
For example my current 3D monitors work much better with AMD than Nvidia, so switching means I'd lose that (although I'm not overly worried about that). But Nvidia do offer better connectivity options for connecting multiple monitors (in my experience), which was a consideration when switching. The less of these things I need to consider the better!

 

[Stanners]

Much whingy comments. Such negativity..

MS been bringing us Windows, API's and even games for what? the past 20 years, but take PC gamers for granted.. Yeah ok then

DX12 looks awesome. MS trying to stay relevant and give PC gamers what they want, but it's not enough for the terminally negative..

AMD make an proprietary API (GCN only) to relieve the bottleneck that is their own CPU's. They are praised.. Are they doing this out of love or to keep their CPU's relevant while they don't have new hardware to compete with Intel..

MS design new API to bring things closer to the metal and somehow they don't care about gamers... Lol.

All these business want is your money. AMD is no more your friend than MS or Nvidia. They all want to stay relevant, you can't say one is bad but one is not. It's all the same...

+1

 

[Gregster]

Much whingy comments. Such negativity..

MS been bringing us Windows, API's and even games for what? the past 20 years, but take PC gamers for granted.. Yeah ok then

DX12 looks awesome. MS trying to stay relevant and give PC gamers what they want, but it's not enough for the terminally negative..

AMD make an proprietary API (GCN only) to relieve the bottleneck that is their own CPU's. They are praised.. Are they doing this out of love or to keep their CPU's relevant while they don't have new hardware to compete with Intel..

MS design new API to bring things closer to the metal and somehow they don't care about gamers... Lol.

All these business want is your money. AMD is no more your friend than MS or Nvidia. They all want to stay relevant, you can't say one is bad but one is not. It's all the same...

Some very good point Boom.

 

[Martini1991]

Everytime MS has made a promise to PC gamers, it's ultimately been a pile of rubbish (Lies)

However, with this API, they can't really lie, it is coming out, it either does what it's meant to, or it doesn't.

 

[Gregster]

Everytime MS has made a promise to PC gamers, it's ultimately been a pile of rubbish (Lies)

However, with this API, they can't really lie, it is coming out, it either does what it's meant to, or it doesn't.

Agreed. MS have a rubbish track record and with other options out there as pointed out by PGI, they have no choice but to deliver.

 

[MyBrainz]

Much whingy comments. Such negativity..

MS been bringing us Windows, API's and even games for what? the past 20 years, but take PC gamers for granted.. Yeah ok then

DX12 looks awesome. MS trying to stay relevant and give PC gamers what they want, but it's not enough for the terminally negative..

AMD make an proprietary API (GCN only) to relieve the bottleneck that is their own CPU's. They are praised.. Are they doing this out of love or to keep their CPU's relevant while they don't have new hardware to compete with Intel..

MS design new API to bring things closer to the metal and somehow they don't care about gamers... Lol.

All these business want is your money. AMD is no more your friend than MS or Nvidia. They all want to stay relevant, you can't say one is bad but one is not. It's all the same...

Really? I only use Intel CPU's and even in the buggy old crappy BF4 using an Alpha build of Mantle i see at least a 20% reduction in CPU usage. In fact i can run my 2700K @ 3.5GHz with BF4 and still see same perf as 4.5GHz.

So please dont spout crap about something u probably have not even tested out yourself. Because if u had u wouldnt have said the above that i have highlighted.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Really? I only use Intel CPU's and even in the buggy old crappy BF4 using an Alpha build of Mantle i see at least a 20% reduction in CPU usage. In fact i can run my 2700K @ 3.5GHz with BF4 and still see same perf as 4.5GHz.

So please dont spout crap about something u probably have not even tested out yourself. Because if u had u wouldnt have said the above that i have highlighted.

I think the point is that while it may benefit Intel too, it benefits the AMD CPUs more, narrowing the gap between Intel and AMD.
If memory serves, Humbug as an AMD CPU and saw some very large gains. Not sure if the Intel gains were as big.
Or at least that's what I thought he meant in the paragraph you highlighted.

 

[mmj_uk]

Boomstick777 is right.

It's no secret that Mantle has a bigger impact the slower a CPU is, just because slower clocked Intel CPU's also see a benefit doesn't change the fact that AMD CPU's gain the most from it.

Now that Microsoft are releasing DX12 Mantle should be dropped anyway as it will just fractionise PC gaming but it's not surprising AMD (for selfish reasons) and their resident worshippers here on this forum are still pushing it.

 

[shankly1985]

i7 here @4.4ghz and get massive gains in mantle with lower cpu usage.

 

[MyBrainz]

Oh right.. yeah.. Intel dont make slower CPU's do they

 

[Martini1991]

Also, Boom asked a question (Although he's lacking punctuation), he never made a statement.