Colleague sacked for being Racist

Rotty · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:19

spirit said:
i dont think so, you never hear pakistanis refering to each other as that, i think its a derogatary term with no justification of use...

I didn't say that they do what I am saying is that in the same way as an Australian can be called an Aussie then it could be argued that it is just an abbreviation of a legitimate term , the context obviously would be a large factor in any argument of course

VIRII · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:21

spirit said:
i dont think so, you never hear pakistanis refering to each other as that, i think its a derogatary term with no justification of use...

Yes you do, a lot in fact - come to Luton, Watford, Hemel etc. As a word in its own right it is no more derrogatory then calling a British person a Brit.
It is the words that accompany it, the context, tone etc that give it meaning.

Nix · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:22

spirit said:
i dont think so, you never hear pakistanis refering to each other as that, i think its a derogatary term with no justification of use...

Well I don't call my other country men Englishman either. Pakistani's are strictly speaking Pakistani's. Here's an example where the ethnic minority are too keen to moan. Austrailians call English people Poms etc, but it's taken as a joke. The only problem with "****" etc is that it is usually used in a derogitory manner which then makes it racist and the ethnicity is in its right to complain.

EDIT: I've heard many Pakistani's calling eachother a "****" as I live in the South-East. They do it as a joke, much like coloured people calling themselves "*******". If someone from another race said it though, it's instantly percieved as racism. This is where the country has seriously damaged the perception of political correctness.

NB: I've tried to keep the tone civil and edited out words probably deemed unfit.

VIRII · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:28

Nix said:
Like Virii said - it's in the eye of the beholder.
If he was genuially racist and your colleague put up with it etc, then perhaps what's happened is only fair.

The more I think about it the more I wonder -

If it is intentionally upsetting then it is quite possibly racist.
However if it is supposed to be joking around and there is no intent to upset yet the recipient finds it offensive is it actually racist or just inappropriate?

A colleague of mine yesterday said "I dunno what he wanted, it would help if he spoke English properly" about an Eastern European who was on site.
I don't think there was any malice in the statement at all, however it made me laugh because the chap that said it was of Indian heritage (he speaks perfect English).
So I said "Oi that's a bit racist isn't it?"
So was he being racist, I don't think so personally.

Rotty · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:30

VIRII said:
A colleague of mine yesterday said "I dunno what he wanted, it would help if he spoke English properly" about an Eastern European who was on site.
I don't think there was any malice in the statement at all, however it made me laugh because the chap that said it was of Indian heritage (he speaks perfect English).
So I said "Oi that's a bit racist isn't it?"
So was he being racist, I don't think so personally.

not in the slightest , he was just stating a fact that the guy's English was not very good

Nix · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:31

VIRII said:
The more I think about it the more I wonder -

If it is intentionally upsetting then it is quite possibly racist.
However if it is supposed to be joking around and there is no intent to upset yet the recipient finds it offensive is it actually racist or just inappropriate?

A colleague of mine yesterday said "I dunno what he wanted, it would help if he spoke English properly" about an Eastern European who was on site.
I don't think there was any malice in the statement at all, however it made me laugh because the chap that said it was of Indian heritage (he speaks perfect English).
So I said "Oi that's a bit racist isn't it?"
So was he being racist, I don't think so personally.

Nope, he was joking. But it depends on its intent like you said. And intent is the difficult thing to proove. Although in the OP's case, the colleague's intent could have been totally innocent, and he may have just been being friendly but this has been taken the wrong way by the other colleague.

Some people are more easily insulted than others too.

Visage · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:37

VIRII said:
Racism often appears to be in the eye of the beholder.

Quite right too.

Visage · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:41

Nix said:
Nope, he was joking. But it depends on its intent like you said. And intent is the difficult thing to proove. Although in the OP's case, the colleague's intent could have been totally innocent, and he may have just been being friendly but this has been taken the wrong way by the other colleague.

Some people are more easily insulted than others too.

Yes, but its one thing to make an innocent mistake, its quite another to make an innocent mistake, have someone complain about it, be warned as to not doing it again, and then repeat it.....

Nix · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:44

Visage said:
Yes, but its one thing to make an innocent mistake, its quite another to make an innocent mistake, have someone complain about it, be warned as to not doing it again, and then repeat it.....

If it's an innocent mistake, it's easier to do it again than it is with a diliberate mistake.
Perhaps the colleague felt that after he apologised that things were fine again.

Visage · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:47

Nix said:
If it's an innocent mistake, it's easier to do it again than it is with a diliberate mistake.
Perhaps the colleague felt that after he apologised that things were fine again.

That makes no sense.

If i make a mistake at work, get warned for it, and apologise, why on earth would that mean its ok to repeat the mistake?

Siliconslave · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:48

at the end of the day he got a warning for what the company, and the person he was being racist towards, felt was inappropriate. He then repeated his actions. If hes not going to heed a warning its his own fault. Regardless of wether the persona makeing the compalint was over reacting he should have knowen to step away from him

Nix · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:49

If it's an INNOCENT mistake, it's much easier to repeat as it's not intentional. A diliberate mistake would be intentional and much easier to control.

I never said it was okay to repeat the mistake, what I said is perhaps the colleague felt that after the apology, things were neautral again.

pyro · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:50

Steameh said:
I'm not sure exactely. It was nothing major, just silly little un-necessary comments.

He has been doing it constantly to my colleague though and my colleague just ignored it until he got fed up of it and complained. That was his first warning which went straight to written warning. Then a couple of weeks ago he made another about his dad, which resulted in being sacked.

The company has evidence he's done it because he admitted it in an e-mail to my colleague apologising.

Well, where I work at I usualy joke a lot with all of my barmates, most of the comments are sexual, sexist if you are a feminist (me to my manager: you are sending two women to empty the glass bin :confused:

) but they are all done in a fun way and to people that I know they will not be offended by it.
There are a few people in the bar that don't like the way I joke, so I simply don't get too friendly with them, if the guy was offended by the comment his coaleague made directly towards him and told him that what he's doing is not cool, but he cept on doing it, then perhaps the sacking could be just.

Rotty said:
N***** is a very awkward one as a a lot of younger black people refer to themselves or each other by it but it usually deemed offensive if used by a white person

Not just black people, my housmates constanly reffer to me as their *****, plus I can call you honkey, ***** cant :cool:

Nix said:
If it's an innocent mistake, it's easier to do it again than it is with a diliberate mistake.
Perhaps the colleague felt that after he apologised that things were fine again.

But that's the thing dude, if his comments targeted specificaly the person who complained, and the guy kept on making the same comments, it must be his fault, surely?

homerio · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:55

If the guy had complained about it then obviously he was not happy with it. The guy has a duty of respect to his colleagues, even without bring racism into it. If he was given fair warnings, then he can be dismissed. The company should also give him the oportunity to appeal with a trade union member present and preferably a higher manager present from the company iirc. His dismissal also has to be given to him in writing.

Visage · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:57

Nix said:
If it's an INNOCENT mistake, it's much easier to repeat as it's not intentional. A diliberate mistake would be intentional and much easier to control.

I never said it was okay to repeat the mistake, what I said is perhaps the colleague felt that after the apology, things were neautral again.

How difficult is it to comprehend 'You're being warned for making an offesnive comment. Dont do it again'

Nix · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:57

pyro said:
But that's the thing dude, if his comments targeted specificaly the person who complained, and the guy kept on making the same comments, it must be his fault, surely?

I'm not suggesting it's not his fault, i'm just trying to explain why he may have done it again. I guess the only person who can answer that is the guy himself.

Nix · 3 Mar 2006 at 10:58

Visage said:
How difficult is it to comprehend 'You're being warned for making an offesnive comment. Dont do it again'

It's not, but if you try to understand what i'm saying - it's easier to slip up on innocent mistakes than deliberate ones.

Shikkaka · 3 Mar 2006 at 11:03

homerio said:
If the guy had complained about it then obviously he was not happy with it. The guy has a duty of respect to his colleagues, even without bring racism into it. If he was given fair warnings, then he can be dismissed. The company should also give him the oportunity to appeal with a trade union member present and preferably a higher manager present from the company iirc. His dismissal also has to be given to him in writing.

The company has followed the necessary procedures. He is in now appealing against it with the HR manager and my manager present.

I personally don't think he has a leg to stand on. Racist or not he has been warned about making these comments and continued to do them.

Nix · 3 Mar 2006 at 11:05

How do the company know he carried on making the comments though, you said they knew originally as he apologised via e-mail.

dirtydog · 3 Mar 2006 at 11:05

Visage said:
Quite right too.

Not really.. otherwise you'd be giving ethnic minorities the power to get anyone sacked on their say so, regardless of how innocent the remark may have actually been.