Concrete driveway advice (pics included)

[LeeUK]

good for you mate
hopefully putting your foot down may get some results
and at least bank transfer gives a record you payed some one unlike cash
guessing they wont take credit card as that would cover you better

I doubt they'll take debit card never mind a credit card. LOL.

 

[j.col]

Lee do you know the area of the job they are doing? eg.m2
also i understand if you dont want to say, but how much was the quote?

 

[LeeUK]

As a driveway/patio installer YOU ARE BEING SHAFTED

That job is no where deep enough, the top pic above that shows the slabs, those slabs are usually 50mm (2") thick and he is barely lower than them.
Its not essential, but we always lay a sheet of plastic under concrete, it stops it drying too fast and its stronger in the long run as the concrete cures better, next week is suppposed to be hot as well

Depth should be a minimum of 100mm (4") of concrete not including the hardcore base, he will try and say he did dig 100mm out but he is using 50mm hardcore and 50mm concrete which is not strong enough
He actually didnt need to put hardcore base in, but as its cheaper than concrete, thats why he used it,

reinforcing bars are also not essential, we rarely use them on domestic driveways

to check depth, get a length of wood to go across the area and measure down or get a length of string and 2 helpers, hold it onto old driveway and path, pull it tight and measure from string to the top of the base
An old dirty trick is they will leave it deeper around the edges so it looks like they dug it out properly, but it will be high in the middle, only way to check is mentioned above

edit, if he gets funny with you, mention you will check with trading standards, for them to check the job when its finished

Thanks, Yep I know I'm being shafted well and truly. They haven't laid the hardcore yet but the ground isn't even 100mm deep to start with in the middle. Like you say, it appears to be deeper at the edges (even if still not deep enough) than in the middle as it's still very uneven.

 

[LeeUK]

Lee do you know the area of the job they are doing? eg.m2
also i understand if you dont want to say, but how much was the quote?

Just been out to re-measure and it's 4.70m x 3.90m so 20m2 approx give or take. It's only between 60mm and 90mm deep depending on where I measure and that's before the hardcore to go on.

They quoted £700.

 

[Mcnumpty2323]

I doubt they'll take debit card never mind a credit card. LOL.

yeah kind of guessed that lol
its good to see someone knows more about this stuff joined the post
like i said only did something like that once
and my 6 inches of concrete and the rebar probably was more than needed
though it was a double garage floor so 2 cars on it
and i am a belt and braces guy so rather make it too strong
and i explained all that to the guy up front
and yeah mine was a cash job lol
but i gave the guy a few weeks once it was finished to make
sure he was happy before he paid the cash

 

[fezster]

Just been out to re-measure and it's 4.70m x 3.90m so 20m2 approx give or take. It's only between 60mm and 90mm deep depending on where I measure and that's before the hardcore to go on.

They quoted £700.

That's about half the cost it should be. £700 would probably only cover the material cost (if done correctly).

 

[Gredawarha]

The old drive didn't have a drain. And absolutely no one else in the street has a drain.

If the driveway is forward of the principal elevation of the dwelling and is greater in area than 5 square metres then a condition of the permitted development is that the material is porous or provision is made to direct rain water from the driveway onto a porous are within the curtilage (generally speaking the garden of the house) of the dwelling. If not then you need express planning permission from your Local Planning Authority (LPA). Irrespective of what was there before or what your neighbors have done.

I'm a Planning Enforcement Office for a LPA.

 

[LeeUK]

That's about half the cost it should be. £700 would probably only cover the material cost (if done correctly).

I did have someone quote £1100 last year but when I asked them to go ahead with the job they just disappeared off a cliff.

If the driveway is forward of the principal elevation of the dwelling and is greater in area than 5 square metres then a condition of the permitted development is that the material is porous or provision is made to direct rain water from the driveway onto a porous are within the curtilage (generally speaking the garden of the house) of the dwelling. If not then you need express planning permission from your Local Planning Authority (LPA). Irrespective of what was there before or what your neighbors have done.

I'm a Planning Enforcement Office for a LPA.

Legalities aside, what difference does it make if the rain water drains into a drain on my property, or runs off into that big drain in the gutter next to the pavement in my photos? The drains on my property and the drains in the street all run into the same sewer pipe that runs down the middle of the lane!

Also the new housing estates they are busy building in area don't have drains to catch the water at the end of the drives.

 

[Skillmister]

!

Also the new housing estates they are busy building in area don't have drains to catch the water at the end of the drives.

They usually use porous surfaces. All the new ones round me use porous bricks, you can pour a bucket of water on them and it just vanishes!

 

[j.col]

That's about half the cost it should be. £700 would probably only cover the material cost (if done correctly).

your estimate is a little high imo

20m2 @ 100mm deep will take 2 cubic metres of concrete £300 to £350 ish for proper concrete, not the cheaper concrete used for backing up kerbs etc...
(picture a 1m x 1m cube, 100mm goes 10 times to the height, so 1 cubic metre at 100mm deep = 10m2, at 50mm deep you will get 20m2)

Old conrete is recycled, so only labour and diesel to drive to the tip
actually recycled concrete is often used a hardcore, its called crushed concrete

whole job will easily cost less than £400 (i am being generous here ((if done correctly))

At present 1 cubic metre of concrete is more than enough for whats dug out

All its cost the builder so far is labour and about £20 diesel and any hardcore he probaly bought

 

[Gredawarha]

I did have someone quote £1100 last year but when I asked them to go ahead with the job they just disappeared off a cliff.



Legalities aside, what difference does it make if the rain water drains into a drain on my property, or runs off into that big drain in the gutter next to the pavement in my photos? The drains on my property and the drains in the street all run into the same sewer pipe that runs down the middle of the lane!

Also the new housing estates they are busy building in area don't have drains to catch the water at the end of the drives.

Briefly, the tragic flooding in 2007, led to government changing the legislation as overloaded drains were considered a significant factor. If your interested in details have a look here:

https://assets.publishing.service.g...achment_data/file/7728/pavingfrontgardens.pdf

Diverting water onto a porous area of the property results prevents drains from overloading. If you direct the water into the road drain or drains on your property your negating the purpose of changing the legislation and will add to the problem.

Any development sites should have a surface drainage plan as part of their permission which should have been assessed by a competent drainage expert as part of the application process.

 

[Mcnumpty2323]

I did have someone quote £1100 last year but when I asked them to go ahead with the job they just disappeared off a cliff.



Legalities aside, what difference does it make if the rain water drains into a drain on my property, or runs off into that big drain in the gutter next to the pavement in my photos? The drains on my property and the drains in the street all run into the same sewer pipe that runs down the middle of the lane!

Also the new housing estates they are busy building in area don't have drains to catch the water at the end of the drives.

yours isnt forwards of the principal elevation of the house anyway
its at the rear isnt it?
and new builds dont have drains because i would imagine
they have a 4-6 inch gap with gravel around the edge
to remove the water instead of a drain
which is what your bunch of likely lads should probably do too
i sure wouldnt rely on them giving it a gentle slope towards the gutter

 

[Gredawarha]

They usually use porous surfaces. All the new ones round me use porous bricks, you can pour a bucket of water on them and it just vanishes!

Yes some products which don't look porous are very impressive

 

[Mcnumpty2323]

Yes some products which don't look porous are very impressive

thats certainly extremely impressive
but few questions
how much more expensive is it?
looks like its layed in sections with small gap between?
whats underneath it as no way thats just soaking into soil
theres got to be some sort of void/drainage/reservoir under that
and whats the maintenance of it if it clogs up?

 

[Gredawarha]

thats certainly extremely impressive
but few questions
how much more expensive is it?
looks like its layed in sections with small gap between?
whats underneath it as no way thats just soaking into soil
theres got to be some sort of void/drainage/reservoir under that
and whats the maintenance of it if it clogs up?

No idea as I'm a planner rather than a developer but I can share my experience of a current case where a drainage scheme for 6 houses was not implemented. Learnt a lot from having to inspect it with a drainage expert.

In this example the access road, effectively a cul-de-sac, should have been dug down some thirty cm or so, then a waterproof membrane laid in a U shape. On top of this the various levels is sub base and finally the porous blocks.

The theory behind this is the road acts like a large tank or underground canal. The road slopes to the rear of the site and connects to a flow regulator which discharges into the main drain but at a limited discharge rate to prevent the drain bring overloaded.

However in my case the cowboys didn't bother, we made them dig it all up.

 

[fezster]

Legalities aside, what difference does it make if the rain water drains into a drain on my property, or runs off into that big drain in the gutter next to the pavement in my photos? The drains on my property and the drains in the street all run into the same sewer pipe that runs down the middle of the lane!

Also the new housing estates they are busy building in area don't have drains to catch the water at the end of the drives.

SUDS.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...age-systems-non-statutory-technical-standards

I can't remember the exact legislation, but you need to use a permeable or porous surface OR direct any surface water to a drain connected to a soakaway.

 

[Gredawarha]

SUDS.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...age-systems-non-statutory-technical-standards

I can't remember the exact legislation, but you need to use a permeable or porous surface OR direct any surface water to a drain connected to a soakaway.

Yes . This is why developers are required to submit a drainage scheme as part of their planning application.

If however as per the op, you're building a hard surface at a dwelling and relying on deemed permission granted by the GPDO then SUDS is not relevant.

 

[LeeUK]

yours isnt forwards of the principal elevation of the house anyway
its at the rear isnt it?
and new builds dont have drains because i would imagine
they have a 4-6 inch gap with gravel around the edge
to remove the water instead of a drain
which is what your bunch of likely lads should probably do too
i sure wouldnt rely on them giving it a gentle slope towards the gutter

Yep it's at the rear of the property.

Yes some products which don't look porous are very impressive

Well I doubt Persimmon use that on their driveways as I've never seen that happen.

 

[Mcnumpty2323]

No idea as I'm a planner rather than a developer but I can share my experience of a current case where a drainage scheme for 6 houses was not implemented. Learnt a lot from having to inspect it with a drainage expert.

In this example the access road, effectively a cul-de-sac, should have been dug down some thirty cm or so, then a waterproof membrane laid in a U shape. On top of this the various levels is sub base and finally the porous blocks.

The theory behind this is the road acts like a large tank or underground canal. The road slopes to the rear of the site and connects to a flow regulator which discharges into the main drain but at a limited discharge rate to prevent the drain bring overloaded.

However in my case the cowboys didn't bother, we made them dig it all up.

thanks
that at least answers the whats underneath it part
and explains why it soaked in so fast
its certainly interesting
and can see why on new builds/developements should be implemented
obviously the extra cost can be put onto sale prices
doubt its going to be of much use to the op though
and as his patch is to the rear not front of the principal part of the house
i assume the afore mentioned regulation may not apply?
in his example would a gap around the edge with a french drain stlye soakaway suffice?
just out of curiosity as obviously his cowboys cant do anything properly

edit i type very slowly so you probably already answered
the regulation bit by the time i finished typing

 

[Gredawarha]

For what it's worth here is the legislation that provides home owners with permission to lay a hard surface within the curtilage of a dwellinghouse:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/contents/made

Class F – hard surfaces incidental to the enjoyment of a dwellinghouse
Permitted development
F. Development consisting of—

(a)the provision within the curtilage of a dwellinghouse of a hard surface for any purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse as such; or
(b)the replacement in whole or in part of such a surface.
Development not permitted
F.1 Development is not permitted by Class F if permission to use the dwellinghouse as a dwellinghouse has been granted only by virtue of Class M, N, P or Q of Part 3 of this Schedule (changes of use).

Conditions
F.2 Development is permitted by Class F subject to the condition that where—

(a)the hard surface would be situated on land between a wall forming the principal elevation of the dwellinghouse and a highway, and
(b)the area of ground covered by the hard surface, or the area of hard surface replaced, would exceed 5 square metres,
either the hard surface is made of porous materials, or provision is made to direct run-off water from the hard surface to a permeable or porous area or surface within the curtilage of the dwellinghouse.​