Could AMD retreating to mid-range & Nvidia becoming out of affordability scope help optimization?

[humbug]

I have a 2070S, i only use DLSS in one game, Icarus, i have to run it in performance mode and that's only because without it the VRam overflows and causes horrendous stuttering, it looks awful, it looks like its run on a PS3.

It could be, many of us have high end displays and GPUs, any such visual flaws become obvious. Nobody knows how long DLSS will last, but the fact that more new games are using it than not points to it carrying on for the long run. The extra price for that cleaner visual experience is worth it i that regard. And for the games that don't have DLSS out of the box, it can just be injected in via a mod.

The long run here being cloud game streaming, that's where many, including Nvidia want this to go.

Play your games at 4K for just £40 per month in the cloud on an RTX 7080 shared with 20 others and upscaled from 720P.

We are active participants in creating our own miserable future, years down the line many will ask where it all went wrong, i know....

 

[CuriousTomCat]

I think my post perfectly sums AMD up the situation, 7900XT releasing for a $900 MSRP confirms that.

According to the Steam survey, 77% of gamers are happy to pay Nvidia prices. Why shouldn't AMD also charge a price that gamers seem happy to pay?

Or do you think AMD should become a non-profit charity?

 

[CuriousTomCat]

As title, could the fact AMD is now focusing on mid-range cards at more "reasonable" price and Nvidia becoming more "premium" and out of scope of affordability for many in the higher end, as well as Nvidia focusing on A.I, could this create more demand on mid-range cards, lower performance improvements and as such mean to ensure progression as far as graphical quality goes there may be a need to focus on optimizing games more, and potentially be even more reliant on DLSS/FG (But that can only go so far).

Last time I checked the Steam survey, most gamers were buying the midrange 3060. Before that, they were buying the 1060. Those are the GPUs that gamers buy.

People in these forums get disjointed from reality and think all gamers buy a 4090.

 

[mrk]

According to the Steam survey, 77% of gamers are happy to pay Nvidia prices. Why shouldn't AMD also charge a price that gamers seem happy to pay?

Or do you think AMD should become a non-profit charity?

You gotta have the performance to match the price increase though. Nvidia are overpriced, but AMD thinking they can also overprice their cards which perform worse outside of raster? Yeah that won't fly, which is why they don't have the 77% gamer GPU user segment and Nvidia does.

I have a 2070S, i only use DLSS in one game, Icarus, i have to run it in performance mode and that's only because without it the VRam overflows and causes horrendous stuttering, it looks awful, it looks like its run on a PS3.




The long run here being cloud game streaming, that's where many, including Nvidia want this to go.

Play your games at 4K for just £40 per month in the cloud on an RTX 7080 shared with 20 others and upscaled from 720P.

We are active participants in creating our own miserable future, years down the line many will ask where it all went wrong, i know....

Streamed gaming will only take over to that level when the basic internet latency and speed available to most poeple increases. The vast majority of people are still on non FTTP connections which have the higher latency that can impact low latency gaming.

According to uswitch:

The latest UK broadband statistics from Ofcom found that the median average download speed in the UK was 69.4Mbps, as of March 2023. This represents a rise of around 10.1Mbps (17%) since March 2022. The median average upload speed in the UK over this period was 18.4Mbps – up 73% from March 2022.

At the moment it's a proof of concept and the future looks good for it sure, but it won't appeal to the dedicated games especially on PC. Otherwise we'd have a dedicated thriving thread for it here already (example).

 

[TrojanWhore]

Really?

Yeah.

Perhaps I was a little harsh on the pricing side, but the 4070S wasn't out when the 7800XT came out.
If you compare to the 4070 not-so-super, then they're priced more or less the same (and yes I realise that the 4070 was originally priced a bit higher).

DLSS vs FSR - It does seem to be the prevailing belief that DLSS is leagues ahead in most titles, I haven't really compared side by side, but that's at least in part because FSR isn't supported in near as many games (and my 7900XT does a lot better than my 3060ti did without upscaling, so I've had no real need).

Then there's FG, I haven't tried AMD's driver level implementation yet, but it's really not comparable even in concept and most stuff I've seen suggests it's not that good (yet!).

None of the above changes the fact that there are a large number of gamers who would not consider anything other than nVidia. Once that changes then we might see things get a bit more competitive.

 

[humbug]

You gotta have the performance to match the price increase though. Nvidia are overpriced, but AMD thinking they can also overprice their cards which perform worse outside of raster? Yeah that won't fly, which is why they don't have the 77% gamer GPU user segment and Nvidia does.


Streamed gaming will only take over to that level when the basic internet latency and speed available to most poeple increases. The vast majority of people are still on non FTTP connections which have the higher latency that can impact low latency gaming.

According to uswitch:

At the moment it's a proof of concept and the future looks good for it sure, but it won't appeal to the dedicated games especially on PC. Otherwise we'd have a dedicated thriving thread for it here already (example).

70 Mbps is more than enough, its plenty.

Yeah.

Perhaps I was a little harsh on the pricing side, but the 4070S wasn't out when the 7800XT came out.
If you compare to the 4070 not-so-super, then they're priced more or less the same (and yes I realise that the 4070 was originally priced a bit higher).

DLSS vs FSR - It does seem to be the prevailing belief that DLSS is leagues ahead in most titles, I haven't really compared side by side, but that's at least in part because FSR isn't supported in near as many games (and my 7900XT does a lot better than my 3060ti did without upscaling, so I've had no real need).

Then there's FG, I haven't tried AMD's driver level implementation yet, but it's really not comparable even in concept and most stuff I've seen suggests it's not that good (yet!).

None of the above changes the fact that there are a large number of gamers who would not consider anything other than nVidia. Once that changes then we might see things get a bit more competitive.

The perception vs reality is my point, DLSS is ahead in image quality, as @mrk rightly points out, but it is not "leagues ahead"
They blow up the still image by 500% to point out the differences that do exist because there is only a difference that you might notice in a specific series of frames, for example temporal AA shimmering has been a thing since Temporal AA and no one hardly noticed it or complained about it, but now that we have to talk about it because Nvidia wants to justify 20 or 30% higher prices tech jurnoes all over are magnifying selective frames.

This to promote something as an "added value feature" that is in reality a cheap console hack that should not exist at all on discrete GPU's that cost as much or more alone. Its a way to give you less raster performance and charge you a premium as its marketed as a must have feature, because your crap GPU wont run the game properly without it, and we lap it up like its a chocolate _______ fountain.

 

[mrk]

Plenty enough for the 3 people that use Geforce Now

 

[humbug]

If you want to see what really bad Temporal AA looks like, and this is a bad case of it....

This was an old NDA test build that's ok to share now as that and the bad water textures and foliage shaders have been fixed.

Nowt

youtu.be

 

[Joxeon]

According to the Steam survey, 77% of gamers are happy to pay Nvidia prices. Why shouldn't AMD also charge a price that gamers seem happy to pay?

Or do you think AMD should become a non-profit charity?

Most are not happy to pay Nvidia’s prices but what other option do people have if AMD are just going to charge a similar amount for similar performance and less features.

AMD says that while sales of its Radeon GPUs increased, sales of game console SoCs declined.
@humbug
That’s odd as according to end of year reports from Sony and MS total console sales increased last year while there was also a lot of handhelds using AMDs SOCs hitting the market.

• PS5 - 22.5 million units (up 65% from 2022)
• Xbox Series X/S - 7.6 million units (down 15% from 2022)

Let’s face it though AMD could have dominated gaming last year if they had of taken advantage of Nvidia’s ridiculous pricing.

 

[Gerard]

Let’s face it though AMD could have dominated gaming last year if they had of taken advantage of Nvidia’s ridiculous pricing.

Somehow I doubt a lower price would have convinced the deluded "omg bad drivers" brigade to switch to an amd card. That's always the warcry as to why not to buy an amd card, it started back in the 90s with ati and continues on today.

 

[humbug]

Most are not happy to pay Nvidia’s prices but what other option do people have if AMD are just going to charge a similar amount for similar performance and less features.

AMD says that while sales of its Radeon GPUs increased, sales of game console SoCs declined.
@humbug
That’s odd as according to end of year reports from Sony and MS total console sales increased last year while there was also a lot of handhelds using AMDs SOCs hitting the market.

• PS5 - 22.5 million units (up 65% from 2022)
• Xbox Series X/S - 7.6 million units (down 15% from 2022)

Let’s face it though AMD could have dominated gaming last year if they had of taken advantage of Nvidia’s ridiculous pricing.

Sony / MS buy those chips in advance, i don't know what AMD console revenue was in the last quarter or two, off the top of my head, but expect a down turn for Sony and MS in consoles over the next.

Let’s face it though AMD could have dominated gaming last year if they had of taken advantage of Nvidia’s ridiculous pricing.

I don't know about dominate, but i agree with you in principle, AMD's on release pricing choice was bad, i think they figure they might always have to lower prices and be that as it may its better to start with high prices so they have some room to move in.

They are priced much better now, most of them, i think the 7700XT could be £400, but i think the 7800XT is just the best GPU period and price wise in its range.

 

[Joxeon]

Somehow I doubt a lower price would have convinced the deluded "omg bad drivers" brigade to switch to an amd card. That's always the warcry as to why not to buy an amd card, it started back in the 90s with ati and continues on today.

I’d say Nvidia’s drivers are worse than AMD these days as most of the software team has been shifted to AI.

As someone who normally buys Nvidia cards I wanted to go AMD so badly this gen to vote with my wallet and send a nessage of discontent to Nvidia but how can I when AMD have silly pricing also.

 

[Gerard]

I’d say Nvidia’s drivers are worse than AMD these days as most of the software team has been shifted to AI.

As someone who normally buys Nvidia cards I wanted to go AMD so badly this gen to vote with my wallet and send a nessage of discontent to Nvidia but how can I when AMD have silly pricing also.

Its hard to convince the idiots that still think this is 1998 and the rage fury maxx drivers are the equivalent of amd software these days. I can go onto Facebook and go to tech site articles on amd reviews read the comments and see people going on about drivers.

It's hard to believe, but there are still plenty of drooling crayon munchers out there that think things haven't changed in 20 + years, and they won't be convinced otherwise.

 

[Ross Thomson]

I think my post perfectly sums AMD up the situation, 7900XT releasing for a $900 MSRP confirms that.

and nvidia having the 4080 for 1200 or the 4090 over 2k now is what?

 

[humbug]

Don't forget the 4070Ti at 900, with 12GB.

 

[KompuKare]

Most are not happy to pay Nvidia’s prices but what other option do people have if AMD are just going to charge a similar amount for similar performance and less features.

AMD says that while sales of its Radeon GPUs increased, sales of game console SoCs declined.
@humbug
That’s odd as according to end of year reports from Sony and MS total console sales increased last year while there was also a lot of handhelds using AMDs SOCs hitting the market.

• PS5 - 22.5 million units (up 65% from 2022)
• Xbox Series X/S - 7.6 million units (down 15% from 2022)

Let’s face it though AMD could have dominated gaming last year if they had of taken advantage of Nvidia’s ridiculous pricing.

Sort of hard to square that circle. So did AMD in their results basically say that Sony and Microsoft are getting an even better deal now?

Its hard to convince the idiots that still think this is 1998 and the rage fury maxx drivers are the equivalent of amd software these days. I can go onto Facebook and go to tech site articles on amd reviews read the comments and see people going on about drivers.

It's hard to believe, but there are still plenty of drooling crayon munchers out there that think things haven't changed in 20 + years, and they won't be convinced otherwise.

Not wanting to start any conspiracies, but I wonder if any percentage of those people on social are stakeholders of some kind? Shareholders, employees (and Nvidia are supposed to have been quite generous with share options to even normal employees), and so. Probably wouldn't take more than a small percentage to keep that meme rolling into 2024.

 

[Gerard]

Not wanting to start any conspiracies, but I wonder if any percentage of those people on social are stakeholders of some kind? Shareholders, employees (and Nvidia are supposed to have been quite generous with share options to even normal employees), and so. Probably wouldn't take more than a small percentage to keep that meme rolling into 2024.

There used to be a group of shills that trolled their way around forums years ago, one of them under the name 'Rollo', part of some supposed nvidia focus group. Really all they did was post crap left and right.

 

[Joxeon]

and nvidia having the 4080 for 1200 or the 4090 over 2k now is what?

A rip off also?

 

[TrojanWhore]

The perception vs reality is my point, DLSS is ahead in image quality, as @mrk rightly points out, but it is not "leagues ahead"
They blow up the still image by 500% to point out the differences that do exist because there is only a difference that you might notice in a specific series of frames, for example temporal AA shimmering has been a thing since Temporal AA and no one hardly noticed it or complained about it, but now that we have to talk about it because Nvidia wants to justify 20 or 30% higher prices tech jurnoes all over are magnifying selective frames.

Yeah I'm not disagreeing! As I said it is the previailing belief and I haven't used either, especially FSR, enough to comment on the quality.

This to promote something as an "added value feature" that is in reality a cheap console hack that should not exist at all on discrete GPU's that cost as much or more alone. Its a way to give you less raster performance and charge you a premium as its marketed as a must have feature, because your crap GPU wont run the game properly without it, and we lap it up like its a chocolate _______ fountain.

Especially agree with this bit, I'd far rather have more silicon/baseline performance than more software features.....That said though, if it enables people to have a better gaming performance with a lower barrier to entry, then it's got to be a good thing.
It's just a shame that, as you said, it's being used currently to obfusciate the lack of generational progression in the hardware.

 

[KompuKare]

There used to be a group of shills that trolled their way around forums years ago, one of them under the name 'Rollo', part of some supposed nvidia focus group. Really all they did was post crap left and right.

The fight-picking Rollo! I never actually come across them but even after all these years their infamy is legends. I keep saying it; Nvidia are well run but they have always played dirty and pretty much ever anti-consumer trick was either invented or refined there. Others are mere copycats.