Criticise the Saudis and you go home in pieces

muon · 19 Oct 2018 at 23:43

They should have done what Russia did. Deny it to the bitter end, instead of this pathetic story.

dowie · 19 Oct 2018 at 23:47

Shame Turkey didn't arrest some of the suspects, it is suggested they had an audio and video feed from within the consulate and were able to confirm pretty early on that he'd been attacked, they raced to the airport and managed to search one of the planes, only one of the Saudis had a diplomatic passport - bit odd that they didn't arrest the others.

foster grant said:
I have not read all of this or seen Every new item on it, but why did hes gf wait outside for 11 hours ?, why didnt she go inside the building and find out why it was taking so long ?

See this article, she called the police much earlier than after 11 hours.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/19/middleeast/turkey-khashoggi-intel-intl/index.html

CNN said:
Turkish officials suspected within hours of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi's disappearance that he had likely been killed and raced to Istanbul airport to intercept a private Saudi plane that was waiting to take off, CNN has learned.

After discovering that Khashoggi had vanished, intelligence officers scrambled to try and find out whether he had been abducted or whether his body was being taken out of the country.
Disguised as airport staff, officers searched the plane while a group of Saudis waited in the airport. But they found nothing suspicious, and the flight in question was allowed to leave at about 11 p.m. local time.

n the two weeks since, authorities have been trying to piece together what happened on that fateful afternoon, when the Washington Post columnist walked into the Saudi consulate to obtain paperwork to marry his Turkish fiancée -- and was never seen again.

Turkish officials now say they believe that 15 Saudi men who arrived in Istanbul on October 2 were connected to Khashoggi's death. At least some of them appear to have high-level connections in the Saudi government.

Multiple sources, supported by the findings of a police report, told CNN how Turkish officials responded after Khashoggi's fiancée Hatice Cengiz raised the alarm just before 5 p.m. on October 2 -- three and a half hours after the journalist entered the consulate. At that time she was still waiting outside.

also some comments from the former head of SIS/MI6:

the guardian said:
Sawers, who was head of the British secret intelligence service until 2014, also claimed that the crown prince would only have acted if he believed he had licence from the White House to behave as he wished.

“I think President Trump and his ministerial team are waking up to just how dangerous it is to have people acting with a sense that they have impunity in their relationship with the United States,” Sawers said.

“If it is proven, and it looks very likely to be the case, that [Prince Mohammed] ordered the killing of the journalist it is a step too far – one that the UK, the EU and the US are going to have to respond to.”

He said the “rogue elements” theory of Khashoggi’s death “simply doesn’t hold water” and that it“further undermines respect for America when it panders to such a blatant fiction”.

dowie · 20 Oct 2018 at 00:21

a few Saudis might need to fall on their swords now for MBS/the Crown Prince... head of the intelligence service has already lost his job, I'm assuming that the not so well connected team members involved in the killing might well end up facing some jail time:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018...illed-istanbul-consulate-181019221512552.html

"The investigations are still under way and 18 Saudi nationals have been arrested," a statement from the Saudi public prosecutor said, adding Royal court adviser Saud al-Qahtani and deputy intelligence chief Ahmed Asiri have been sacked from their positions.

Of course they've not said what they did with the body yet... Turkish police are apparently searching some woods near Istanbul, if they discover the body and it has been cut up with a bone saw then....

doodah · 20 Oct 2018 at 00:25

Rumours that some well respected generals might get the chop as part of operation take one for the team. So does the fight theory give enough cover for the UK and US to carry on as normal?

I take this been their third version of events (nothing to do with us, rouge killers and then boxer stance) amounts to nothing?

Edit - sounds like one general has already done so.

FoxEye · 20 Oct 2018 at 00:45

Malevolence said:
They've had long enough to come up with any excuse they wanted and that's the best they can do?

It's almost as good as, "He tripped, fell, and landed in this giant industrial blender we were in the process of moving to the attic."

dowie · 20 Oct 2018 at 00:48

doodah said:
I take this been their third version of events (nothing to do with us, rouge killers and then boxer stance) amounts to nothing?

Edit - sounds like one general has already done so.

Is the general you're referring to the deputy intelligence chief mentioned in the article I linked to above? Or is it another sacking?

I don't think this is the third version, they've initially denied it and now they've claimed this fight explanation.

The rogue killers thing is just a rumour they were speculated to be due to announce - that could still tie in with this fight thing if prompted in so far as they might well try to claim that the Crown prince initially had no knowledge of it thus the sacking of the deputy head of intelligence and the arrests etc..

Tefal · 20 Oct 2018 at 06:21

dowie said:
Is the general you're referring to the deputy intelligence chief mentioned in the article I linked to above? Or is it another sacking?

I don't think this is the third version, they've initially denied it and now they've claimed this fight explanation.

The rogue killers thing is just a rumour they were speculated to be due to announce - that could still tie in with this fight thing if prompted in so far as they might well try to claim that the Crown prince initially had no knowledge of it thus the sacking of the deputy head of intelligence and the arrests etc..

I thought the route killer thing came from trump?

Pipe & Slippers · 20 Oct 2018 at 07:25

Tefal said:
I thought the route killer thing came from trump?

Blimey it says a lot about the Saudis that they are stealing Trump's ideas

Felon · 20 Oct 2018 at 09:08

Lol ok.

So if they’re admitting he died in a fight.... I’m assuming they have his body (along with injuries related to a fight) and they’ll be shipping it back to turkey imminently.....?

Absolute load of nonsense, worse than Russia.

Freakbro · 20 Oct 2018 at 09:22

Tefal said:
I thought the route killer thing came from trump?

That was only after the phone call with the Saudi King, where the King assured him he knew nothing about it, so I imagine also mentioned about "rogue killers" which of course they knew Trump would blurt out.

And now Trump is saying this version of events is credible... :rolleyes:

you'd have to be a brokebrain of RaohNS proportions to believe this one...

Dis86 · 20 Oct 2018 at 09:25

Freakbro said:
That was only after the phone call with the Saudi King, where the King assured him he knew nothing about it, so I imagine also mentioned about "rogue killers" which of course they knew Trump would blurt out.

And now Trump is saying this version of events is credible... you'd have to be a brokebrain of RaohNS proportions to believe this one...

Roah is capable of forming his own opinions I think you'll find.

Once Vladimir gives them to him.

dowie · 20 Oct 2018 at 13:22

Tefal said:
I thought the route killer thing came from trump?

He referred to the possibility. I mean it was a legit question - “did the Crown Prince and the King authorise this or was it someone within the intelligence services acting on their own initiative?” But seems unlikely this would be done without approval from the top.

Of course Trump framed it in his usual manner and the media had fun with it.
There was a rumour that the Saudis might go with that as an explanation too, but AFAIK they didn’t, they just stuck with their denials until this fist fight explanation.

Tefal · 20 Oct 2018 at 14:57

Screeeech said:
Lol ok.

So if they’re admitting he died in a fight.... I’m assuming they have his body (along with injuries related to a fight) and they’ll be shipping it back to turkey imminently.....?

Absolute load of nonsense, worse than Russia.

Assuming the Saudi embassy doesn't have a mourge imagine the stench of this dudes body after they just accidently killed him self defence and left him there for a few weeks now isn't it?

The Funktopus · 20 Oct 2018 at 15:00

How can we trust anything Saudi Arabia has to say about this? :mad:

I mean they’ve already flagrantly violated the first rule of Istanbul Consulate Fight Club....

StriderX · 20 Oct 2018 at 15:02

Will Turkey reveal the truth or will they cower in fear.

Considering Turkey's recent history, they may very well annoy Saudi Arabia for fun.

Panos · 20 Oct 2018 at 15:46

StriderX said:
Will Turkey reveal the truth or will they cower in fear.

Considering Turkey's recent history, they may very well annoy Saudi Arabia for fun.

Turkey is as rogue state as Saudi Arabia. The problem is the "West" hypocrisy surrounding Turkey also.

Salvini (Italian PM) said two days ago "the European Union is financing and courting Turkey, a country that has had a European country under military occupation for 44 years, while imposing sanctions against Russia for its 2014 annexation of Crimea".

And Italy is very ****** with Turkey because they have put Cyprus under naval "siege" not allowing ENI (Italy) & Total (France) to dig for oil in Cypriot waters.
Exxon Mobil doing so unhindered, because is of American interests.

The only alternative to resolve this is war between Greece and Turkey (the two biggest armies east of France) which seems inevitable these days, if someone follows the news there, but that will break apart NATO driving one of those countries closer to the Sino-Russian axis.

banbom44 · 20 Oct 2018 at 16:51

FoxEye said:
It'll all settle down in a couple days and be brushed under the carpet. Nobody is going to cut ties with Saudi over a journalist being tortured and dismembered. Hell, all western governments love a good bit of torture themselves.

Just got to appear outraged for the cameras. What's more, we all know it.

Yes true mate its just virtue signalling people are only making a big song and dance over it is because he worked for the Washington post.

banbom44 · 20 Oct 2018 at 16:53

StriderX said:
Will Turkey reveal the truth or will they cower in fear.

Considering Turkey's recent history, they may very well annoy Saudi Arabia for fun.

Turks are just after rinsing Saudi Arabia for money as if they care that the Saudi's bumped off a journalist.

Orionaut · 21 Oct 2018 at 11:08

Hmmn. International relations...

Imperialism-Full Fat, Full Flavour

We want your resources and markets and we think we can run your country better than you do. So we are going to invade, occupy, and do all three.

Imperialism-Lite

We want your resources and markets. But you are a "Free and independent nation state". Free to make your own laws and govern yourselves however you wish

However, we still think we can run your country better than you can, so if you do not run your country the way we think you should run it, we are going to interfere and try to make things hard for you!

Non-Imperialism

We want your resources and markets But you really are a "Free and independent nation state". You can do whatever you damn please regarding the governance of your own country and citizens.

We will only interfere if what you chose to do impacts negatively on us. Under these circumstances will feel free to take whatever action we deem appropriate to mitigate the situation (Right up to Imperialism-Full fat, Full flavour if necessary)

Other than that, knock yourselves out.

So, how should we be regarding the Saudis (Or anybody else for that matter)?

StriderX · 21 Oct 2018 at 11:35

Orionaut said:
Hmmn. International relations...

Imperialism-Full Fat, Full Flavour

We want your resources and markets and we think we can run your country better than you do. So we are going to invade, occupy, and do all three.

Imperialism-Lite

We want your resources and markets. But you are a "Free and independent nation state". Free to make your own laws and govern yourselves however you wish

However, we still think we can run your country better than you can, so if you do not run your country the way we think you should run it, we are going to interfere and try to make things hard for you!

Non-Imperialism

We want your resources and markets But you really are a "Free and independent nation state". You can do whatever you damn please regarding the governance of your own country and citizens.

We will only interfere if what you chose to do impacts negatively on us. Under these circumstances will feel free to take whatever action we deem appropriate to mitigate the situation (Right up to Imperialism-Full fat, Full flavour if necessary)

Other than that, knock yourselves out.

So, how should we be regarding the Saudis (Or anybody else for that matter)?

The issue was the distinction in the first place, being incoherent on policy over a century is a terrible way to run global society. When they practically funded 9/11, they should have been glassed there and then.