Soldato
student debt is ridic now, just get a job, be a trainee junior pleb for a couple of years then step up.
Degree Apprenticeship (Digital Technology Solutions Bsc) or University (Computer Science Bsc)
Soldato
I've been in the Computer Industry approaching 40 years now, I don't have a degree. If this industry is your goal then forget about a fancy degree - they are only any good for the first couple of jobs and getting your foot in the door, after that real world experience and vocational qualifications are far more important (and the qualifications not even that much).
If I was in your shoes I would do the apprenticeship as you get a degree which is nice, but far more importantly you get four years on the job which will really kick start your career over someone just leaving Uni after four years.
If you're not looking to get into the Computer Industry, get the Comp Sci degree.
Just my opinion.
If I was in your shoes I would do the apprenticeship as you get a degree which is nice, but far more importantly you get four years on the job which will really kick start your career over someone just leaving Uni after four years.
If you're not looking to get into the Computer Industry, get the Comp Sci degree.
Just my opinion.
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I did a CS degree decades ago; why do you want to do one? I was mad keen on computers at the time but in retrospect I would have been better off doing something else and working computers in.
My view, after working somewhere that ran a popular degree apprenticeship program (who coincidently used Exeter uni, and for the same degree the OP mentions), is I’d go down that route nowadays.
After the degree apprenticeship period is up, you’ll have a degree with zero debt and 4 years industry experience.
The actual degree and where it’s from will matter far less than the experience gained, and if you stay at the company you did the apprenticeship at you’ll gain even more years of experience making the details of the degree even more irrelevant.
Had a few of the degree apprentices in our team over the years, and interviewed candidates as well.
All did well out of it, either by staying after their apprenticeship was up, or by leaving for a role elsewhere as an experienced professional.
After the degree apprenticeship period is up, you’ll have a degree with zero debt and 4 years industry experience.
The actual degree and where it’s from will matter far less than the experience gained, and if you stay at the company you did the apprenticeship at you’ll gain even more years of experience making the details of the degree even more irrelevant.
Had a few of the degree apprentices in our team over the years, and interviewed candidates as well.
All did well out of it, either by staying after their apprenticeship was up, or by leaving for a role elsewhere as an experienced professional.
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I'm just going to add to my original comment.
I have woked for over 10 years as a Product Manager working closely with engineers etc.
My work experience has been far more important than my degree. I've also been involved in hiring PMs and supporting hiring of engineers - experience was always far more important than the degree.
Yes, I have a Comp Sci degree and an MSc in Technology Management (Got the MSc part time while working) but again experience much more important.
If I was OP I'd get the 4 years of experience and degree and if you really wanted to would then get a Comp Sci MSc or something.
That work experience would be invaluable though.
I have woked for over 10 years as a Product Manager working closely with engineers etc.
My work experience has been far more important than my degree. I've also been involved in hiring PMs and supporting hiring of engineers - experience was always far more important than the degree.
Yes, I have a Comp Sci degree and an MSc in Technology Management (Got the MSc part time while working) but again experience much more important.
If I was OP I'd get the 4 years of experience and degree and if you really wanted to would then get a Comp Sci MSc or something.
That work experience would be invaluable though.
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I really enjoy learning about computers and also the Comp Sci course for universities like UCL seem really interesting. However, i'm conflicted because i've done work experience at a tech firm before and I really enjoyed being able to use theory and my programming skills in the real world.
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Could you tell me how the apprentices compared with the graduates at the end of their apprenticeship (e.g their skills, working with them, were apprentices missing any fundamental computer science knowledge)?
Yeah I think the fact that it's still a Bsc degree is a big plus. I've looked at a bunch of job listings online in the UK and for abroad, and many of them say they want some sort of Bsc in computer science or a related field so I think Digital and Technology solutions would pass but im not entirely sure.
Excellent.
The roles I worked with them were in technical pre sales, so they were technical specialists on particular products we made/sold, so understood how they worked, what they did, what the value it gave was, rather than a development type role.
As for how they compared to the grads, they weren't lacking anything in comparison, I'd have put them on a par in my specific area as both sets of people were green to the industry so were all starting from the same point.
No student debt (not too big of a problem for me as parents said they will pay but still nice)
A good salary
4 years work experience
A Russell Group degree
A potential job at the end of the 4 years
Good employer name on CV
I'll put a different perspective. I have interviewed hundreds of candidates for several different employers. In not one of them would a Degree Apprenticeship in Digital Technology Solutions Bsc, ever make it to my desk. they would just get filtered by HR as you have to start somewhere. This doesn't say anything about the quality of such a certificate per se, just that it is likely to loose you opportunities. This also highlights how induistry would in general view such a degree. One thing is clear is that a good grade in a strong subject form a great university will always help you a well paid job and ensure career progression. As you lower these factors down then the value can quickly dilute. Some people have mentioned that degrees are not useful, but are largely comparing mediocre degrees form midlevel unis and degrees outside STEM. i.e,, "Digital Technology Solutions" whatever that is, is probably really not that useful so why even bother? Employers liekly wont respect it, it wont satisfy criteria for grad programs or other employment routes. It is likely quite vocational so in the immediate term provide some advantage , but this will also quiet likely prevent further studies Don't expect to be able to do an MSc in Computer Science afterwards, for example.
Then I think you need to be careful considering the pros and cons. Yes, work experience is useful but after a few years it wont really make a difference. Someone with 7 years work experience and a Join honours Maths and Computer Science from a tope 6 uni, vs someone with 6 years experience and a 4 year Apprenticeship and a certificate in Digital Technology Solutions". You seem to be double counting the apprenticeship as both a degree and work experience when at best it is half and half, but liekly half and half of not very good experience and into very good degree. Quality of work experience is more important than duration, 2 years at a solid tech company or investment bank will be much higher valued than 4 year part time as part of an apprenticeship.
Also don;t forget that you will still get work experience doing a degree. Outside lectures, tutorials, course work and self-study you ca work on open-source projects or your own projects which you can publish on github etc. You can and should also do internships during vacations, and these will likely land you a graduate job. Before I graduated I had several internships, large code projects I could share and several job offers.
On the financial side, you need to look at long term earnings potential. The Apprenticeship salary wont be that great, but with a top degree from a strong candidate can earn a lot right from graduation. Ok, not UK salary but here in CH we pay new graduates about 120K GBP per year plus bonuses and stock , straight from uni. When I was graduating back in 2005 rates in london seemed to be about 60K although I heard wages stagnated for some time in the UK.
Lastly, I think you need to consider future proof-ness.While AI is over hyped, it will impact workforces, especially combined with globalised workforces. Almost my entire team is based in india, and these guys are incredibly dedicated. Culturally, they find 70 hour work weeks perfectly acceptable. They are incredibly well educated, really smart and love working to hard deadlines. You combine that with the inesvtibel ability of code-pilots to take on the grunt work of software development, then I really don't think the vocational side of software development is going to be viable in europe. This is where a solid COmputer Science or `Maths degree forma. top uni will be much more helpful in the long run. You want to be driving research, product development and management, engineering management, business development etc while a team if kick ass engineers in India or elsewhere leverage automated tools to curn out high quality code at a fraction of the cost . The converse I think is also valid - electricians, plumbers, mechanics have a rosy future as these are not easily automated or off-shored.
A good salary
4 years work experience
A Russell Group degree
A potential job at the end of the 4 years
Good employer name on CV
I'll put a different perspective. I have interviewed hundreds of candidates for several different employers. In not one of them would a Degree Apprenticeship in Digital Technology Solutions Bsc, ever make it to my desk. they would just get filtered by HR as you have to start somewhere. This doesn't say anything about the quality of such a certificate per se, just that it is likely to loose you opportunities. This also highlights how induistry would in general view such a degree. One thing is clear is that a good grade in a strong subject form a great university will always help you a well paid job and ensure career progression. As you lower these factors down then the value can quickly dilute. Some people have mentioned that degrees are not useful, but are largely comparing mediocre degrees form midlevel unis and degrees outside STEM. i.e,, "Digital Technology Solutions" whatever that is, is probably really not that useful so why even bother? Employers liekly wont respect it, it wont satisfy criteria for grad programs or other employment routes. It is likely quite vocational so in the immediate term provide some advantage , but this will also quiet likely prevent further studies Don't expect to be able to do an MSc in Computer Science afterwards, for example.
Then I think you need to be careful considering the pros and cons. Yes, work experience is useful but after a few years it wont really make a difference. Someone with 7 years work experience and a Join honours Maths and Computer Science from a tope 6 uni, vs someone with 6 years experience and a 4 year Apprenticeship and a certificate in Digital Technology Solutions". You seem to be double counting the apprenticeship as both a degree and work experience when at best it is half and half, but liekly half and half of not very good experience and into very good degree. Quality of work experience is more important than duration, 2 years at a solid tech company or investment bank will be much higher valued than 4 year part time as part of an apprenticeship.
Also don;t forget that you will still get work experience doing a degree. Outside lectures, tutorials, course work and self-study you ca work on open-source projects or your own projects which you can publish on github etc. You can and should also do internships during vacations, and these will likely land you a graduate job. Before I graduated I had several internships, large code projects I could share and several job offers.
On the financial side, you need to look at long term earnings potential. The Apprenticeship salary wont be that great, but with a top degree from a strong candidate can earn a lot right from graduation. Ok, not UK salary but here in CH we pay new graduates about 120K GBP per year plus bonuses and stock , straight from uni. When I was graduating back in 2005 rates in london seemed to be about 60K although I heard wages stagnated for some time in the UK.
Lastly, I think you need to consider future proof-ness.While AI is over hyped, it will impact workforces, especially combined with globalised workforces. Almost my entire team is based in india, and these guys are incredibly dedicated. Culturally, they find 70 hour work weeks perfectly acceptable. They are incredibly well educated, really smart and love working to hard deadlines. You combine that with the inesvtibel ability of code-pilots to take on the grunt work of software development, then I really don't think the vocational side of software development is going to be viable in europe. This is where a solid COmputer Science or `Maths degree forma. top uni will be much more helpful in the long run. You want to be driving research, product development and management, engineering management, business development etc while a team if kick ass engineers in India or elsewhere leverage automated tools to curn out high quality code at a fraction of the cost . The converse I think is also valid - electricians, plumbers, mechanics have a rosy future as these are not easily automated or off-shored.
I think there's two sets of advice given at you, and they're both good... but it kind of depends on both your inclination and aptitude, and what I mean by that is:
The advice to take the well-known university for a CS degree makes sense if you are aiming to, and realistically can, get into high end industries. A Meta, Google, Netflix, for the technology companies, a Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, etc, a hedge fund or similar, or a well-known consultancy.
In this scenario, you have international options, you will earn an high salary at some point (maybe immediately, maybe by 30, 35 depending which company you end up in), and any debt incurred at the outset will be easily paid by the high salaries at that point.
This is also the scenario where you do a lot of hours (at least in finance, maybe not in tech giants), learn a lot of corporate-speak, and generally end up being one of those people that other people feel are out of touch with reality with how the rest of the country/world lives.
The advice to take the lower cost degree makes sense if either you don't want to (the majority of tech jobs are outside tech giants and finance) or are unlikely to be able to get into (everybody else who likes money is also going to gunning for the two dozen employer's worth of jobs). This lowers your costs to begin with, you get a degree either way, gives you some industry experience, and generally puts you into good standing with most "normal" employers. It doesn't exclude you from eventually ending up in one of the first set of companies, but will almost certainly exclude you initially. Work-life balance in this route may be better, and there'll be a wider set of places to choose from outside the major international cities.
I would encourage you to be realistic about your prospects, "high end" employer internship acceptance ratios are typically < 5%, and some places pride themselves on being < 1%, and subsequent job prospects are maybe a little better but not much, and also have a clear idea of what you want (i.e. do you want to spend years of your life in a glass box in a major city?) and that should hopefully make it obvious as to which to pick.
The advice to take the well-known university for a CS degree makes sense if you are aiming to, and realistically can, get into high end industries. A Meta, Google, Netflix, for the technology companies, a Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, etc, a hedge fund or similar, or a well-known consultancy.
In this scenario, you have international options, you will earn an high salary at some point (maybe immediately, maybe by 30, 35 depending which company you end up in), and any debt incurred at the outset will be easily paid by the high salaries at that point.
This is also the scenario where you do a lot of hours (at least in finance, maybe not in tech giants), learn a lot of corporate-speak, and generally end up being one of those people that other people feel are out of touch with reality with how the rest of the country/world lives.
The advice to take the lower cost degree makes sense if either you don't want to (the majority of tech jobs are outside tech giants and finance) or are unlikely to be able to get into (everybody else who likes money is also going to gunning for the two dozen employer's worth of jobs). This lowers your costs to begin with, you get a degree either way, gives you some industry experience, and generally puts you into good standing with most "normal" employers. It doesn't exclude you from eventually ending up in one of the first set of companies, but will almost certainly exclude you initially. Work-life balance in this route may be better, and there'll be a wider set of places to choose from outside the major international cities.
I would encourage you to be realistic about your prospects, "high end" employer internship acceptance ratios are typically < 5%, and some places pride themselves on being < 1%, and subsequent job prospects are maybe a little better but not much, and also have a clear idea of what you want (i.e. do you want to spend years of your life in a glass box in a major city?) and that should hopefully make it obvious as to which to pick.
I should add that I think also you're going to largely hear from people who have done very well financially, and said people might end up over-estimating how easy it is to do very well.
I believe this to be the case for at least two reasons:
I believe this to be the case for at least two reasons:
- We're on a technology forum. It's more difficult for people who can't afford tech toys to be excited to be tech toys, so this is a self selecting bunch of people who can afford it... which also explains how there's a bunch of Conservatives in GD, and
- People who make a lot of money are more likely to believe they're qualified to give careers advice.
Depends on the jobs, for many jobs it will be fine (especially with directly relevant work experience in that job to back it up too) but for a few that are either particularly competitive or need some particular CS or mathematical ability it probably won't be.
For a while now there have been regular 3-year full-time degrees that are not CS degrees but are still tech-related albeit more vocational in nature - titles like "Business Information Systems" etc. So combining something along those lines with work experience too would be fine for plenty of jobs in tech.
For the trading firm I worked at then you'd probably have had your CV ignored unless there was some other compelling reason to look at you, for the software firm I was on a grad scheme you'd have quite possibly been considered and indeed it wasn't necessary to have a CS degree specifically either. There was some variation in where people were placed mind - the Westminster guy in tech support and the LSE guy in product management. Once you're into a firm like that you can move around - that isn't, however, the case for Banks - going to a non-target uni and getting an IT job likely isn't going to be your ticket to getting onto a trading desk, target uni + summer internships do that.
It really depends on what you want to do in the future re: either ambitions for your career or further (academic) study - we don't really know what the job market may look like in 3-4 years time anyway.
Soldato
Could you do the apprenticeship and then the degree at a later date? You may not be able to do it the other way round.
It would be a bit OTT to do another undergrad degree in most cases, if he wants to do the academic undergrad at a good brand name uni he'd be better off just doing that.
There are other qualifications he could make use of later if he were to do the apprenticeship and it wasn't sufficient academically - firstly some general CS MSc degrees are conversion courses for non-CS grads rather than specialist masters degrees - 1 year full time or 2 years part-time. It's basically going to cover core undergrad CS topics. The Georgia Tech OMSCS seems to have a mix of introductory and specialist courses and may still be fine to take with a more vocational undergrad too.
I guess he could credit transfer to the Open University and take some modules and get a second BSc without having to do a full 360 credits too.
Also, there are "graduate certificates" in some areas - if he wanted to take an MSc in say Statistics, Data Science, Machine Learning, Computational Finance etc.. then the University of London/LSE, Sheffield, Birkbeck etc.. offer graduate certificates in mathematics/statistics (IIRC usually 1 year of part-time study) that you can use as part of an application for an MSc if your BSc/BA wouldn't otherwise have been suitable.
Essentially you don't need to go and do a full second degree, there are other options.
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I'm a lecturer that teaches on a DTS apprenticeship programme and also on a traditional Comp Sci degree (and others such as Cyber Security, Data Analyst etc) - do the apprenticeship.
We run five pathways - Software Engineer, Data Analyst, Cyber Security, IT Consultant and Network Engineer as do a lot of others so you can choose your specialism - (in ours the specialist modules start from term three in yr one).
We run five pathways - Software Engineer, Data Analyst, Cyber Security, IT Consultant and Network Engineer as do a lot of others so you can choose your specialism - (in ours the specialist modules start from term three in yr one).
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