Degree Apprenticeship vs Computer Science from Top 20

I'd go for the apprenticeship, in my eyes experience is everything.

My partner did the whole uni thing, I didn't bother as I just wanted to earn some money instead of being sat in a classroom. I now earn nearly double what she does. Granted, our industries are massively different, but from what you're being offered I'd be thinking of the £70k!
 
Winky_The_Winking_Turtle said:
You shouldn't be scared about starting work :p Sure, it's daunting, but it's gotta happen eventually. Uni's great though if you want to live a cushioned, sheltered life style for another 4+ years to delay adult hood. People are willing to pay thousands just to have that luxury :p

Apprenticeships, especially in the IT related field, takes the cake imo. Experience trumps all. Sure, maybe some HR will prefer a "proper" degree at face value, but most of the time once you get past that stage it's all about prior knowledge/experience/independent projects/etc.
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Any tips for doing Situational Judgement Tests? On my 2nd stage of application with one of the scheme employers.

I think living like a kid for another 4 years does sound pretty nice, don't really think you can argue that as a negative!

Also im pretty sure degrees are a bit less worthless than what everyone here
Makes them out to be - no one would be willing to fork 80K if they were all as crap as you guys made them out to be! I understand that there's over saturation of the graduate market but a degree would also give me flexibility in CS and allows me to see what route I would specialise in eg. Networks, security, AI, biocomputing, games.. I don't even know what I want to do so that's probably why I'm leading to Uni, I guess they'll give me a proper foundation in programming and code, but of course the employer could do exactly that too...
 
Trojan Horse said:
Any tips for doing Situational Judgement Tests? On my 2nd stage of application with one of the scheme employers.

I think living like a kid for another 4 years does sound pretty nice, don't really think you can argue that as a negative!

Also im pretty sure degrees are a bit less worthless than what everyone here
Makes them out to be - no one would be willing to fork 80K if they were all as crap as you guys made them out to be! I understand that there's over saturation of the graduate market but a degree would also give me flexibility in CS and allows me to see what route I would specialise in eg. Networks, security, AI, biocomputing, games.. I don't even know what I want to do so that's probably why I'm leading to Uni, I guess they'll give me a proper foundation in programming and code, but of course the employer could do exactly that too...
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They would, because just like you and many of us who went for degrees we liked the whole idea of going to uni and not having to get stuck into the working life for another 4 years and having a bit more time to actually try and work out what we wanted to do with our lives.

Uni will teach you the basic fundamentals but be prepared for it all to be turned on it's head once you actually get into the real world and have to start using it in real world applications.
 
I understand IT is a rather saturated industry, but that said, how many doors is open to a computer science degree holder? i.e. If IT isn't what you want, with the science/logic/maths based education, you do have a wider range of doors opened to you.

Yes, a degree has debts. A degree also allows for you to find yourself. It was my degree that made me realise I am not cut out for trying to get into medicine. It was my degree that taught me I enjoy a scale up and industrial processing than the intricacy of lab working. It's not just social and lifestyle. It's about finding out what actually interest you in that sector of the industry your degree is preparing you to.

An apprenticeship is different. You enter it with certainty that you want to be in this industry, trying to switch too far out from the industry, when you've completed or worst, if you drop out half way in the 5 years of time invested, you'll find it trickier to get back into FT education or get into an industry you do not have direct relation / experience. This applies to most focused apprenticeship, but Comp Science sounds like it's possible to get into any industry - but I am stereotyping it with association to IT.

I am not for or against any of the above, ultimately it's down to how certain you are.

From the sound of your OP, you are still undecided. Do you have access to speaking to role models in your industry? Writing letters, emails or even popping into local firms to speak to some seasoned workers and fresh graduates, perhaps that can help you in the short term to deciding before it gets too late for application?
 
Nix said:
Do not underestimate how valuable experience is.
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This, a thousand times - no point having a degree if no-one will hire you because you have no experience and you can't get any experience because no-one will hire you...

tom_e said:
Uni will teach you the basic fundamentals but be prepared for it all to be turned on it's head once you actually get into the real world and have to start using it in real world applications.
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And this - it's all very well learning the theory of how to deal with ideal scenarios, and I'm not trying to say a degree isn't worthwhile, but it's only the first most basic steps towards applying those theories in reality.

In your position I'd take the apprenticeship without a doubt!
 
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If you go down the apprenticeship route, remember that the experience is your edge from this point going forward. As long as you have a plan fleshed out in your mind, dedication and drive - which you can demonstrate in the years to come, I would agree with the others here who say that it trumps the degree route.
 
Trojan Horse said:
Any tips for doing Situational Judgement Tests? On my 2nd stage of application with one of the scheme employers.

I think living like a kid for another 4 years does sound pretty nice, don't really think you can argue that as a negative!

Also im pretty sure degrees are a bit less worthless than what everyone here
Makes them out to be - no one would be willing to fork 80K if they were all as crap as you guys made them out to be! I understand that there's over saturation of the graduate market but a degree would also give me flexibility in CS and allows me to see what route I would specialise in eg. Networks, security, AI, biocomputing, games.. I don't even know what I want to do so that's probably why I'm leading to Uni, I guess they'll give me a proper foundation in programming and code, but of course the employer could do exactly that too...
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I don't have a degree, so I couldn't tell you from experience like some people here can. Anecdotally, everyone I know with a degree believes that the degree served only one purpose for them, which was to help open doors. Once actually in employment, they are of little to no benefit.

So, if you can open a door another way (like an apprenticeship) you'll be in, be without the debt and be ahead of everyone with a degree by the time they graduate and start scrapping over grad scheme places etc.

My career path to where I am now, aged 30:

Junior IT analyst at a small outsourced IT firm, working up to a more senior role - £16-20k [A friend helped get me in the door here]
"IT Manager" of a very small NHS org - £30k
Technical Support (Infrastructure) at an NHS Trust - Band 8a (£low 40ks)
Senior Network Analyst, global S&P 500 company - £mid-40s, travelling all over the world
Senior Network Analyst, Fortune 500 company, well inside the top 100 - £60-£70k

None of the roles were in London and the first half were all in the North West

At every step of the way, I've been ahead in pay and seniority compared to people my age with a degree. Once I'd been in the industry a few years, my academic qualifications are a teeny tiny footnote on my CV.

Degrees work for some professions - good luck being in the medical or legal professions without one. For IT work, no way. Go for the apprenticeship.
 
Just to confirm, the 70k is your total wage over the 5 years, not 70k cash in hand at the 5 years point that some people seem to think?
 
Firestar_3x said:
Just to confirm, the 70k is your total wage over the 5 years, not 70k cash in hand at the 5 years point that some people seem to think?
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He clarified it as that, yes. :)

That's still income which he won't be getting as a FT student. Nothing stopping him saving a large percentage of that.
 
Moses said:
Go to uni and use a portion of your spare time getting experience, whilst also having a great time, making lifelong friends, and studying at a broadly respected level. The notion that it's university vs experience is laughable - two computer science students I vaguely knew in halls both got firsts while running a business/starting their own coding business/working internationally/have continued doing that after uni/were nice guys/etc.
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This is possible, but extremely rare.

Almost everyone I knew from school went to Uni and not one of them had any more than a bar/kitchen/waiter job.

I don't doubt that there are people who manage to get a relevant job during their time at Uni and make it work, but lets not make out that it is either common or easy - it just isn't like that at all.
 
Which of the two options you should take depends on whether:

- You want to live in London.
- How much you value income over other job factors.

A degree at a higher end university is a ticket to *apply* for some of the more lucrative jobs, mostly in London, mostly in financial services IT. If you're not aiming for that, then the apprenticeship would be better.
 
Apprenticeship all the way.. Sorry but nothing beats raw experience.

The problem is that so many youngsters are coming out with degrees that there's nothing to decipher or means testing real potential candidates. This is why interviewing techniques have changed over the years so that their is a level of granularity for example, an English test. Let's put it another way, if an IT manger has 20 CV on his desk 19 with 2.1 degree levels but 1 has experience in the field you are looking for, seriously, which one are you going to have in for a chat?

IMO, if anyone has a chance of training along side a real job, then take it.

My daughter regrets going to uni because she knows she could have got the same training with the police, albeit there may have been longer to wait..
 
Trojan Horse said:
I have a choice between going to a RG uni in the top 20 and getting a Computer Science degree, or alternatively, getting an apprenticeship which funds a worse degree from a lower uni.

I wanted to know, what would you guys do? What are the pros and cons of each and will an apprenticeship hinder my career progression with top firm.

Pros of Apprenticeship:
  • No tuition fees (free Digital & Technology Solutions degree from Man Met / Aston)
  • 70K upon graduation (5yrs pay)
  • 5yrs Work Experience
  • Jump start into competitive careers eg defence

Pros of Degree:
  • Stronger degree from well reputed university
  • Degree completed in less time
  • University experience
  • 3/4 more years of Formal education
  • Can go onto doing MSc at Oxbridge
  • Diverse networking
  • Lead societies, software side projects, internships
  • Chance to get a scholarship anyway
  • Progression to Top 4 (Microsoft, Apple, etc.)

What do you guys think? I've managed to get entry lowered to uni so grade requirements are pretty similar to both (BBB vs BBC on apprenticeships)
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Aston University is well respected and more reputable institution than Manchester Met. The difference between Aston and Southampton would to my mind be negligible and if you are being offered a degree for free and then a very well paid job then go for Aston. It is a no-brainer really and Birmingham is a decent undergraduate city.

I spent my undergraduate years worrying about the university reputation and whether I would struggle to get a good job. My advice is to really not bother. In reality there are perhaps 5-10 institutions in the UK which are world class and have the potential to really increase your career prospects (i.e Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, UCL & LSE, Warwick etc etc) but outside these elite places and not counting some of the very new universities it matters less than you think especially as most of the reasonably good universities fluctuate in rankings year on year.
 
DRZ said:
I don't have a degree, so I couldn't tell you from experience like some people here can. Anecdotally, everyone I know with a degree believes that the degree served only one purpose for them, which was to help open doors. Once actually in employment, they are of little to no benefit.

So, if you can open a door another way (like an apprenticeship) you'll be in, be without the debt and be ahead of everyone with a degree by the time they graduate and start scrapping over grad scheme places etc.

My career path to where I am now, aged 30:

Junior IT analyst at a small outsourced IT firm, working up to a more senior role - £16-20k [A friend helped get me in the door here]
"IT Manager" of a very small NHS org - £30k
Technical Support (Infrastructure) at an NHS Trust - Band 8a (£low 40ks)
Senior Network Analyst, global S&P 500 company - £mid-40s, travelling all over the world
Senior Network Analyst, Fortune 500 company, well inside the top 100 - £60-£70k

None of the roles were in London and the first half were all in the North West

At every step of the way, I've been ahead in pay and seniority compared to people my age with a degree. Once I'd been in the industry a few years, my academic qualifications are a teeny tiny footnote on my CV.

Degrees work for some professions - good luck being in the medical or legal professions without one. For IT work, no way. Go for the apprenticeship.
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That's really impressive (or it isn't, what do I know). It's pretty much exactly the way I want to go.

Would you mind if I asked firstly, how many years it took you to get to where you are, whats work life balance like, would you offer me any tips at the start of my career?

Isn't part of the reason you did so well because people of your generation didn't need degress to get to the top places? My dad makes around 80k without any qualification whatsoever. I know it can be done, but it just seems much harder without that reputable university backing to help get your foot in the door.

Has anybody else looked into the degree apprenticeship scheme? I'm desperate to find more companies to apply to, and more importantly, larger firms with interesting projects.
 
Trojan Horse said:
Isn't part of the reason you did so well because people of your generation didn't need degress to get to the top places? My dad makes around 80k without any qualification whatsoever. I know it can be done, but it just seems much harder without that reputable university backing to help get your foot in the door.
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Why would you need a degree to get your foot in the door when that's what the apprenticeship would be doing :p

Lets put it this way, if you were hiring and had a choice between the person fresh out of uni or with 5 years experience in the industry, which would you choose to hire?
 
Been in IT for 30 years in January.. I don't even have an O'level to my name let alone a degree. Things were different in the 80's though, only the really bright people went to uni, the rest of us went to college or got apprenticeships.. In my case, i got a YTS at a local company who trained me into programming. The way it should be still today.

Skills > Throery
 
Apprenticeship + money, do a great job, supplement your degree with edx or other sources to potentially add depth of knowledge that a less good uni may not provide.

With cash from working for 5 years and a hopefully good degree you could look into doing a masters from a more reputable uni. So maybe 1-2 years after your degree finishes you could end up with 5 years experience, a masters from say oxford or other higher quality uni, still have cash left over and no one will really care where your undergrad was.

On top of that after an apprenticeship you may have a very good idea of an area you want to specialise where a masters could help you get a boost in that field.

You also would have cash in pocket even after a masters. Enough for a downpayment on a house after moving somewhere for a new job. Maybe cash to live on so you can take that internship you hope will lead to your dream job that if you were straight out of uni you couldn't afford to take due to debt and no savings.

Basically if the reputation of the uni really matters, just take it another step further afterwards though I really wouldn't worry about it in the first place.
 
Trojan Horse said:
That's really impressive (or it isn't, what do I know). It's pretty much exactly the way I want to go.

Would you mind if I asked firstly, how many years it took you to get to where you are, whats work life balance like, would you offer me any tips at the start of my career?

Isn't part of the reason you did so well because people of your generation didn't need degress to get to the top places? My dad makes around 80k without any qualification whatsoever. I know it can be done, but it just seems much harder without that reputable university backing to help get your foot in the door.

Has anybody else looked into the degree apprenticeship scheme? I'm desperate to find more companies to apply to, and more importantly, larger firms with interesting projects.
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I don't think it is all that impressive personally - I'm not "unusual", there are others here with similar stories earning similar money at roughly the same age (I'm 30, most people I work with are between 30 and 40 with the majority being 30-35 although I'm the youngest at my "level").

I've been in IT for around 10 years now. I started "late" because it took me a while to land that first IT job. While I was waiting I stepped up from home-grade IT (although I had set up an NT domain at home before I was a teenager...) and built up labs with enterprise-grade kit and started learning that way so I wasn't totally green when I started.

I'm not sure that "my generation" (wow, way to make a guy feel old!) has a different attitude towards degrees than today. I grew up through the Blair years of sending as many people to Uni as possible, the introduction of tuition fees and loans instead of grants and so on. I think that my parents had the "old" attitude when they were working when degrees really did have a value and were much more "elite".

I'll stand by my opinion that providing you can get a job and gain relevant, high quality experience you'll be more valuable to an employer than a fresh graduate with a CS degree. On the "downside", you'll genuinely struggle to get to interview with someone like Accenture or any financial institutions until you've got many years of experience - and perhaps by then you'll realise you might not want to work for someone like that anyway...
 
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