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[wordy]

Oh that show is amazing! Wish i could do martial arts

You could if you wanted to. Our instructor's favorite saying is "A black belt is a white belt that didn't quit"

His favorite martial arts story is.... that back when martial arts were first practiced there weren't any different coloured belts, everyone used white belts, which got dirty with frequent use. So the dirtier your belt the longer you had trainied for and the better you were, and thats where blet belts came from

 

[MrSix]

when martial arts were first practiced there weren't any different coloured belts, everyone used white belts, which got dirty with frequent use. So the dirtier your belt the longer you had trainied for and the better you were, and thats where blet belts came from

lies...it was when it reached the western world and our culture dictates that we want material entities to show our progress and achievements, because we're not just happy with peace of mind.

 

[beckster]

Kiai - wasn't that one of the characters in Super Monkey Ball?

 

[PaulStat]

lies...it was when it reached the western world and our culture dictates that we want material entities to show our progress and achievements, because we're not just happy with peace of mind.

I also read wordys' explanation of the belt system in Robert Twiggers Angry White Pyjamas

 

[aardvark]

You have no proof either way, thats the problem and I think you confusing me and dolph, he said nothing about university.

Science is based mainly around theories, there are precious few facts about how the human body works, especially when weighed up against the numerous theories, some undoubtedly more plausable than others. Its often the case that we know what happens, i.e. when we add/remove this enzyme/chemical/whatever to this part of the body X occurs, but why this happens is usually in the realms of theory. You cannot make a reasonable judgement without knowing either way, and you do not know either way, so I suggest you stop hiding behind science to try and prove/disprove, and rather remain skeptical, and hold the position that in your opinion, its a load of rubbish.

well, dolph said he was scientifically trained which must mean university, but anyway - what you are talking about is the bodies complicated biochemistry, which still must (and does) obey the laws of chemistry/physics - of course we don't fully understand the complexities but there are fundamental laws that must be obeyed (because millions of experiments and data have shown the theory to be pretty accurate) - i'm a chemist and make drugs for cancer/anti-mocrobial applications so i'm not totally ignorant in the workings of the human body.

the martial artists claim to be able to do many things that directly contradict the theories of acoustics, biology, biochemistry and physics - now sure, its possible that all known science for the last 2 hundred years is wrong - the science that gave you the PC you are reading this on, the science that gave us modern medicine, the science that took us to the moon - and that these martials artists are really doing something beyond science - its possible........................but is it really probable?????????? i say no, in my professional opinion - take that for what its worth.

 

[aardvark]

In your posts I get the impression that at the time where the world was seen as flat, you would be amongst the scientists shunning those daring to believe differently.

certainly not - all the evidence shows that the earth isn't flat - thats what science does, bases its ideas on evidence.

the only thing i doubt about the martial artists talked about in this thread is the ability to generate acoutic frequencies that then have a physical effect on other peoples bodies (and bells it seems) - i don't doubt anything else about martial arts or the psychological effect.

the physical generation of these frequencies goes against all biological knowledge - as does the physics of the processes involved in what was stated on the video - science can easily prove that what was seen/claimed in the video was false. its that simple

 

[Dolph]

its nothing to do with faith and belief - these concepts have nothing to do with science.

It has everything to do with faith, your faith in the scientific method as the only method that yeilds acceptable answers. Your faith in the process is what causes you to dismiss and insult others and their views. In that regard, you appear no different to any other person with a strong, possibly fanatical, faith based belief.

show me even the slightest bit of evidence that contradicts the opinion that what was described in that video (supposedly stopping someone with his voice etc.) is physically, theoretically and practically impossible.

Again, you assume that Science is the only means by which can be defined as real. I would suggest actually going and standing in front of the master in the video for a demonstration, but obviously that's a little bit impractical.

Show me where science claims to hold all answers and all truth, and you may have a point. As it stands, it's nothing more than your faith and belief that Science is the only truth that suggests such a thing. Science itself does not.

if you think there is no scientific data to prove he is a fraud then you don't know as much about biology and physics as you think you do, so before you call me a fundamentalist i respectfully suggest you go back to university and improve your scientific education (no insult intended - i don't want to turn this into a slanging match)

I finished my Chemistry degree in 2002, no real desire to go back at the moment. However, your view does rather smack of fundmentalism, you are defining a predicitive model with strict limits as the only possible truth for a start, you're also apparently claiming that the model can't be revised subject to new information (which goes against fundamental science practice anyway), and then proceeding to disparage the beliefs of others while denying that your beliefs are anything apart from your own opinion and faith in the subject matter.

 

[aardvark]

It has everything to do with faith, your faith in the scientific method as the only method that yeilds acceptable answers. Your faith in the process is what causes you to dismiss and insult others and their views. In that regard, you appear no different to any other person with a strong, possibly fanatical, faith based belief.



Again, you assume that Science is the only means by which can be defined as real. I would suggest actually going and standing in front of the master in the video for a demonstration, but obviously that's a little bit impractical.

Show me where science claims to hold all answers and all truth, and you may have a point. As it stands, it's nothing more than your faith and belief that Science is the only truth that suggests such a thing. Science itself does not.



I finished my Chemistry degree in 2002, no real desire to go back at the moment. However, your view does rather smack of fundmentalism, you are defining a predicitive model with strict limits as the only possible truth for a start, you're also apparently claiming that the model can't be revised subject to new information (which goes against fundamental science practice anyway), and then proceeding to disparage the beliefs of others while denying that your beliefs are anything apart from your own opinion and faith in the subject matter.

lol - you are completely misinterpreting what i'm saying - i don't believe any of the things you say i do.

i can only reitterate that fact that science in no way can be considered a belief - the very foundation of the scientific method is one of independent observation of empirical data, independently varified and peer reviewed. The view of science you are explaining simply doesn't exist - it is a similar view that many non-scientists hold, especially in the media, but it is simply not correct.

 

[Dolph]

certainly not - all the evidence shows that the earth isn't flat - thats what science does, bases its ideas on evidence.

Science also allows for revision and discovery when anomolous information is collected. A scientific model is the one with the least variables that fits the available data, nothing more, nothing less. If you discover new data or information, you investigate it, and if necessary, start to look to revise the model and it's assumptions.

Your dismissive attitude would suggest you don't follow such things.

the only thing i doubt about the martial artists talked about in this thread is the ability to generate acoutic frequencies that then have a physical effect on other peoples bodies (and bells it seems) - i don't doubt anything else about martial arts or the psychological effect.

the physical generation of these frequencies goes against all biological knowledge - as does the physics of the processes involved in what was stated on the video - science can easily prove that what was seen/claimed in the video was false. its that simple

Can it? I would argue science could prove it could be faked, could look at alternative explainations and investigate them. But without significant study, you wouldn't be able to declare it false.

You can't simply look at something and say "Doesn't fit with the theory, must be false" without actually investigating it.

http://www.medscimonit.com/pub/vol_10/no_6/5189.pdf is quite a nice study on Qigong showing a postive benefit, although how it compares to other methods of improving the body's health I'm not sure.

 

[Dolph]

lol - you are completely misinterpreting what i'm saying - i don't believe any of the things you say i do.

Perhaps you don't, but your posting style certainly suggests otherwise.

i can only reitterate that fact that science in no way can be considered a belief - the very foundation of the scientific method is one of independent observation of empirical data, independently varified and peer reviewed. The view of science you are explaining simply doesn't exist - it is a similar view that many non-scientists hold, especially in the media, but it is simply not correct.

Your view is actually far more common among non-scientists than mine. And my view of science itself is very similar to the one you express. Science itself is not a belief, it's a methodology. Much like the bible is just a book.

How you view that methodology and it's consequences, much like how you view the bible, is what matters.

However, I fully recognise this discussion is probably going to go nowhere, as I've never met someone with views like yours who will ever consider the possibility they place their faith in anything.

 

[aardvark]

Science also allows for revision and discovery when anomolous information is collected. A scientific model is the one with the least variables that fits the available data, nothing more, nothing less. If you discover new data or information, you investigate it, and if necessary, start to look to revise the model and it's assumptions.

Your dismissive attitude would suggest you don't follow such things.

of course any theory is open to revision when new data appears - but an edited video on youtube hardly constitutes new scientific data now does it?
If you want to revise a theory you have to do more than have a video with some vague mystical crap in it

Can it? I would argue science could prove it could be faked, could look at alternative explainations and investigate them. But without significant study, you wouldn't be able to declare it false.

You can't simply look at something and say "Doesn't fit with the theory, must be false" without actually investigating it.

http://www.medscimonit.com/pub/vol_10/no_6/5189.pdf is quite a nice study on Qigong showing a postive benefit, although how it compares to other methods of improving the body's health I'm not sure.

i don't want you to think that i have absolute faith in science - it obviously has problems - there are many scientific theories that are inaccurate at best and just plain wrong at worst

that paper on Qigong is a fine scientific study - i have no problem with it.

again, i certainly don't mean to insult anyone - maybe we will have to agree to disagree?

 

[Dolph]

of course any theory is open to revision when new data appears - but an edited video on youtube hardly constitutes new scientific data now does it?
If you want to revise a theory you have to do more than have a video with some vague mystical crap in it

Agreed, I never claimed the video was scientifically valid evidence, because it certainly isn't.

that paper on Qigong is a fine scientific study - i have no problem with it.

again, i certainly don't mean to insult anyone - maybe we will have to agree to disagree?

I think we will, likewise I hope you haven't taken offense to anything I've said. I once held views very similar to yours, and if I hadn't experienced some of the things I have, quite possibly still would.

 

[aardvark]

With these things you've got to have a bit of an open mind, and it helps if you want to believe it (which I do) but that doesnt mean I don't remain skeptical, but thats mainly because im a cynic at heart !

On this subject at least aardvark, your posts are indicative of you having quite a closed mind on the subject, and quite a heavy reliance on science being gospel (oh the irony ).

looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree as well

 

[robmiller]

Proved in what way? You can certainly go and watch people demonstrate such techniques, you can also learn such techniques yourself, if the desire takes you.

I can also watch people demonstrating that magnets can cure cancer, and that hypnosis works. I don't really see how you can equate someone apparently demonstrating something with proving it.

Your choice, but don't expect everyone to agree with you.

Of course, people like to believe in comfortable things like mystical life forces and benevolent gods, but it doesn't mean it's true.

 

[robmiller]

I hope your not a man of religion, as this is the sole reason that humans have created it

What It's exactly the opposite; religion is created to explain away mysteries whilst science seeks to explain it whilst admitting there are areas it cannot explain.

 

[Dolph]

Of course, people like to believe in comfortable things like mystical life forces and benevolent gods, but it doesn't mean it's true.

Just as your belief that it's all a load of hogwash doesn't make it false.