Democracy, the Cameron way.

Immsy said:
They resigned, not sacked
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Do you know the difference between resigning and being sacked at that level?

It's **** all except how you want to go.

Relative of mine ended a career of over 30 years in the civil service because the new conservative minister refused to talk to him.

A few months later they massively back-pedalled over the plans they pushed him out for so he was just a victim of politics.


Sure you can make it difficult but if you have enough guts to have an opinion you wouldn't try stay in a job you can't really do anymore.
 
Cameron said in yesterday's debate that he didn't want a 3 option referendum because it means one option could win with 34% of the vote. Apparently such a system isn't good enough for a non-binding referendum, but it's perfectly fine for the single most important election in our country :rolleyes:
 
El Capitano said:
Cameron said in yesterday's debate that he didn't want a 3 option referendum because it means one option could win with 34% of the vote. Apparently such a system isn't good enough for a non-binding referendum, but it's perfectly fine for the single most important election in our country :rolleyes:
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3 option? As in Yes, No, I don't know? What are the odds hte majority would pick the last option? :P
 
So nothing has actually happened aside from a few people voting against him and the press blew it out of proportion?

Well there's a surprise.
 
Cat_In_Pyjamas said:
3 option? As in Yes, No, I don't know? What are the odds hte majority would pick the last option? :P
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It was stay in, get out, or renegotiate the terms. Which wouldn't be great as if, say, 35% voted get out, 40% voted stay in, and 25% said renegotiate the terms, the result would be get out, despite 65% of people wanting to stay in.

To El Capitano; just because our general elections have a rubbish system doesn't mean our referendums should as well.
 
OldCoals said:
Well tonight some Conservative MP's voted against David Cameron's wishes regarding the proposed EU referendum.

He has rewarded them for there disobedience by sacking them from their ministerial roles.

What a disgrace.
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Has Cameron actually sacked anyone :confused:


As to the referendum, I doubt that most people have any idea whether membership of the EU is a good or a bad thing - I certainly don't know and I doubt that many of the MPs do either.

There is a thread in SC titled 'If you had a device which enabled you to go back in time to stop a world atrocity, would you stop it?; amongst the response there are many related to unintended consequences. Who really understands the Pros & Cons of EU membership? I accept that many Daily Mail reading Little Englanders don't want to have anything to do with Johnny Foreigner under any circumstances but we can't keep pretending that we are a nation of Supermen, privy to all the answers.


ps - I do agree that the use of the three line whip is a disgrace in almost all circumstances :(
 
Our democracy means every 4-5 years, we elect people to represent us and make decisions for us on the running of our country.

It does not mean we all vote on every issue affecting our country and neither should it. Not only do many people find it hard enough to select the winning X Factor candidate let alone make an informed and rational non prejudiced DEY TERK ERR JERBS based decision on something like Europe, it would be rather impractical for us to vote on everything anyway.

This is the same in most of the world - when was the last referendum on the USA?
 
MrMoonX said:
yay hopefully the tories will start infighting and fall apart, despite popular opinion the EU is actually good for us
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I prefer a party with many view points and discussions rather then Labour where they have all their sheep in a line

Having said that i'm disappointed in Cameron. Now he's done this he needs to shut up about the Big Society as people did get involved in politics and sign an online petition, and he went against it
 
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It always strikes me as amazing how many of our politicians are vehemently anti-EU until they get elected when they suddenly become pro-Europe. What is it that changes them? The civil service? Does the other work they have to do making tackling Europe look like a pile of unappealing hassle?

Personally I'm pro-EU - it's not perfect and needs changing, but I believe it's here to stay, gives us greater bargaining power in the geopolitical arena and I'd rather we were part of it so we have a say in its rules (and a veto) than in a free trade agreement where we'd have to follow the rules without having a say. The case for the EU has to be heard though, at the moment it's only the euro-sceptics who are making themselves heard.
 
scorza said:
It always strikes me as amazing how many of our politicians are vehemently anti-EU until they get elected when they suddenly become pro-Europe. What is it that changes them?
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I wonder if perhaps it's that they gain more knowledge once they are actually able to become a part of things rather than standing on the sidelines? And then subsequently realise that actually, the opinion they held before was flawed.

My personal view is that the EU in its current form is bad and at the very least it needs to be renegotiated so my opinions in these threads are not from the perspective of somebody who is hugely pro Europe.
 
If you're a euro sceptic presumably you voted for a euro sceptic MP?
I don't understand why that isn't peoples voices heard, even if your MP wasn't a euro sceptic, even if you didn't vote for them, they are your representative, you speak through them, write them a letter, arrange an appointment with them.

It's just another media driven loudest voices being heard fuss.
Can anyone give a legitimate reason for there being a referendum other than assuming it would take us out of the EU? It does seem to be only those who want out of the EU that want a referendum.
 
robgmun said:
... I'm disappointed in Cameron. Now he's done this he needs to shut up about the Big Society as people did get involved in politics and sign an online petition, and he went against it
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The whole online petition thing is a complete nonsense - just have a look at the number of 'rejected' petitions.

As to this particular e-petition about a referendum on EU membership, it is probably far less representative of the popular mood than the protest outside St Paul's is.
 
[TW]Fox;20393320 said:
Our democracy means every 4-5 years, we elect people to represent us and make decisions for us on the running of our country.

It does not mean we all vote on every issue affecting our country and neither should it. Not only do many people find it hard enough to select the winning X Factor candidate let alone make an informed and rational non prejudiced DEY TERK ERR JERBS based decision on something like Europe, it would be rather impractical for us to vote on everything anyway.

This is the same in most of the world - when was the last referendum on the USA?
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This. I don't trust the UK public to make an educated and informed decision on whether to stay in the EU, I feel too many 'emotions' would be involved.

Like others in this thread I want to stay in the EU, but under renegotiated terms.
 
OldCoals said:
Well tonight some Conservative MP's are voted against David Cameron's wishes regarding the proposed EU referendum.

He has rewarded them for there disobedience by sacking them from their ministerial roles.

What a disgrace.
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Cabinet ministers who vote against their own government have always been sacked.
What part of your great British tradition do you find a disgrace?
 
robgmun said:
Having said that i'm disappointed in Cameron. Now he's done this he needs to shut up about the Big Society as people did get involved in politics and sign an online petition, and he went against it
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What? The promise of the petition is that it will get discussed in parliament, it may get immediately dismissed after that or it may in this case be called to vote on whether a referendum was going to happen, the parties will have their line that they expect the MPs to toe, what's wrong about that? The public asked for the possibility of a referendum to be discussed, it was, it was vastly outvoted by the no's, we move on.
 
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