Derek Chauvin murder trial (Police officer who arrested George Floyd)

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Raikiri said:
Ok, so he's both on the cusp of death because of his drug use and an unstoppable behemoth that requires extreme force to detain.

Schrodinger's detainee. [..]
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The two states in Schrodinger's famous thought experiment are mutually exclusive. That's the whole point of it. The two states you refer to are not mutually exclusive. So it's not the same thing at all. It's completely different on the most important point - whether or not the states are mutually exclusive.

On top of that, using a restraint technique explicitly taught to you for use as a safe restraint technique isn't using "extreme force to detain".
 
Naff8000 said:
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. It's possible to survive being shot 20 times. He kept his body weight on his neck for 8 minutes and didn't check him when he stopped responding.
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You said it was murder, I stated a knee to the neck could be done without killing people, that has everything to do with this situation. What has absolutely nothing to do with this situation is being shot 20 times. I didn't read anything about blood loss or gunshot wounds in the autopsy.

He kept some of his body weight on the neck throughout, that might have contributed to his death, or might not have. It needs to be proven that the knee actually killed him, hence the trial.

Thousands of people will have had a knee to their neck without dying, but getting shot 20 times and not dying is almost unheard of.
 
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Angilion said:
On top of that, using a restraint technique explicitly taught to you for use as a safe restraint technique isn't using "extreme force to detain".
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Just because it's taught doesn't make it not excessive. I doubt they're told to hold it for 8+ minutes.

They're taught to use tasers, but continuously tasering someone for 8 minutes might, possibly, be classed as just a little over the top.
 
Longbow said:
You said it was murder, I stated a knee to the neck could be done without killing people, that has everything to do with this situation.
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I stated it was murder because he kept his knee on his neck for 8 minutes and didn't check him. I didn't say a random knee on someone means murder.
Longbow said:
What has absolutely nothing to do with this situation is being shot 20 times. I didn't read anything about blood loss or gunshot wounds in the autopsy.
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Calm down lad, it doesn't take much to realise I was saying your "And it is possible to put your knee on someone's neck and not kill them." was as irrelevant as someone surviving being shot 20 times. Not sure how you came to the conclusion that this means someone was shot 20 times.
 
Hansen should be given a medal.. She was incredible today, picking up on every single little thing the defence was trying to point out, or trip her up on. She was hella mad at the end but still held it together. Great prep from her/team.
 
Naff8000 said:
He kept his body weight on his neck for 8 minutes...
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Do you have any idea how much force/cm2 that would be? That's the kind of force that can damage bones and joints, yet there wasn't even soft tissue damage.

You have to get past the optics, which admittedly are terrible to the untrained eye. The cops knew he was off his face, and were immobilising him for his own safety. Without a knee or hand to keep his head still he could start banging off the concrete, either deliberately or as a result of a drug reaction.

The only thing I can see wrong was not turning him over when he went unconcious.

Here's the full bodycam footage and some timestamps if you haven't seen it yet.
Skunkworks said:
For those that haven't seen the full bodycam footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkEGGLu_fNU

Some timestamps:

05:46 Officer asks if GF if he's "on something" and mentions mouth foam a couple of seconds later.
06:23 GF starts resisting and claims to be claustrophobic.
08:16 GF says "Imma die here".
08:54 GF's first mention of breathing.
09:03 GF says "I'll get on the ground, anything."
09:43 GF's first mention of "I can't breathe".
09:54 GF pushes himslf out of the back seat and says "I wanna lay on the ground".
10:15 GF before being placed on the ground claims he can't breathe. Bystander tells him to "just get in the car".
10:50 GF placed on the ground.
11:16 GF asks for his "momma".
12:05 Officer says "EMS are on the way".
13:22 GF says "I'm about to die".
13:28 Officer says "He's got to be on something".
13:48 Officer mentions PCP and "shaking of the eyes".
14:10 GF asks for water.
15:26 Officer says "move him on his side?"
15:36 GF's last mention of "I can't breathe".
16:24 Officer says "I think he's passing out". GF appears unconscious from this point.
19:13 Officers talking to EMS.
20:23 GF placed on gurney.
22:35 Officers question the other occupants of GF's car.

There's nothing racial, and the cops are very patient. The footage, toxicology report, plus the knee technique being in the literal training manual means, if fair, this is an open-and-shut case.
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Skunkworks said:
Do you have any idea how much force/cm2 that would be? That's the kind of force that can damage bones and joints, yet there wasn't even soft tissue damage.

You have to get past the optics, which admittedly are terrible to the untrained eye. The cops knew he was off his face, and were immobilising him for his own safety. Without a knee or hand to keep his head still he could start banging off the concrete, either deliberately or as a result of a drug reaction.

The only thing I can see wrong was not turning him over when he went unconcious.

Here's the full bodycam footage and some timestamps if you haven't seen it yet.
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Except the wider consequences if he's found not guilty. Riots etc.
 
jsmoke said:
Except the wider consequences if he's found not guilty. Riots etc.
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Which is why he'll probably be judged guilty of something. This is a political case more than a criminal case. I'm not sure what I'd do if I was on the jury. When you know that giving a "not guilty" verdict will put your life at risk and result in the killing of some people, that's bound to have some effect on your verdict. I'd probably try to avoid being on the jury by truthfully saying that I wouldn't be able to give an honest verdict due to the intimidation.
 
That picture, absolutely zero concern for the George who was, I believe, already handcuffed? It's almost as if he has his knee on a carrier bad to stop it blowing away in the wind.
 
Skunkworks said:
The only thing I can see wrong was not turning him over when he went unconcious.
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Having watched the whole body cam footage video, and on reflection, this is the key bit that makes me feel really very uneasy about Derek's actions.

Everything that happened up until that point seemed within reason to me, but not to even check whether he's still breathing when he's stopped shouting and someone else has raised the concern that he might not be breathing just seems completely wrong. This is someone that they suspect may have taken drugs, is clearly in some mental and physical distress because they've already called an ambulance, and up until that point has been making noise. Seems completely negligent not to check if he needs first aid (eg put in recovery position, start cpr, whatever depending on whether he is actually still breathing or not) when it becomes apparent his condition has changed.

To me that time period between George stopping talking and the other officer (I think?) raising the concern about his breathing and the ambulance arriving is what really needs explaining. Giving the benefit of the doubt I could see Derek saying the situation was overwhelming or something with a crowd starting to form, or that it felt to him like George was still breathing or whatever, but until that explanation is given I could still imagine him being convicted of manslaughter at the very least.

What was going through his head during that time? Only he knows.
 
Skunkworks said:
The only thing I can see wrong was not turning him over when he went unconcious.
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Yep if anything gets him found guilty it's this, it's the only negligent thing that happened in the whole ordeal, he seems to pass out around 16:24 as the officer even says he's passing out, at 17:45 I guess it's the middle officer says he can't find a pulse so they did actually check him and even mentioned 30 seconds prior he was still breathing and then the Ambulance turns up around 19:47, it's not really a whole lot of time gone by, a whole 3 minutes.

This vid is better as it shows more, with footage in the ambulance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gQYMBALDXc&t=621s

It took them another 3-4 minutes from the ambulance arriving before they started CPR, I was more shocked from the slow and not bothered response of the ambulance crew but I guess they were following procedure just like the cops
 
GreatAuk said:
Having watched the whole body cam footage video, and on reflection, this is the key bit that makes me feel really very uneasy about Derek's actions.

Everything that happened up until that point seemed within reason to me, but not to even check whether he's still breathing when he's stopped shouting and someone else has raised the concern that he might not be breathing just seems completely wrong. This is someone that they suspect may have taken drugs, is clearly in some mental and physical distress because they've already called an ambulance, and up until that point has been making noise. Seems completely negligent not to check if he needs first aid (eg put in recovery position, start cpr, whatever depending on whether he is actually still breathing or not) when it becomes apparent his condition has changed.

To me that time period between George stopping talking and the other officer (I think?) raising the concern about his breathing and the ambulance arriving is what really needs explaining. Giving the benefit of the doubt I could see Derek saying the situation was overwhelming or something with a crowd starting to form, or that it felt to him like George was still breathing or whatever, but until that explanation is given I could still imagine him being convicted of manslaughter at the very least.

What was going through his head during that time? Only he knows.
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If the officer didn't cause floyd to stop breathing, what legal duty does he have to check him? Most likely there are police procedures to follow which he didn't, but from a legal pov?
 
The Running Man said:
I didnt say he did lie, I'm asking as a policeman do you simply trust everything someone says, even if they tried to fight you moments before?

I mean he says I can't breath, you ease up he jumps up and runs away/fights you again.

Are you saying this is not a possibility that could have occurred and that has occurred many times, where a suspect has been apprehended and lies about an ailment to try and escape?
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Why didn't the copper just handcuff the guy? then no need for the neck kneeling
 
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