Soldato
indeed - as always he is being cool-headed and fair.
Top-bloke.
Did someone delete an XBox modchip question?
- Thread starter teabagger
- Start date
indeed - as always he is being cool-headed and fair.
Top-bloke.
Soldato
actually thats a very good point. You can play copied games on an xbox without using a chip........Now since it is the discussion of modchips themselfs that you are banning, what is the ruling on talk of softmodding xbox's?
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Originally posted by Dolph
Erm, the article you've posted doesn't suggest anything of the sort
The case was brought by sony, but not limited to Sony. The ruling it brought can be followed up by other manufacturers citing this one as precedence. It then falls to the defendant to prove the precedent doesn't apply. Because of precedent, you actually assume it does apply unless the courts say it doesn't. For this to be the case, Microsoft would have to take the case to court on the sony precedent and lose, this hasn't happened.
What you are saying isn't how the law works, and none of the sites listing this information suggest it is, so I don't know where you're coming up with this conclusion, other than because you guys want to believe it.
-Dolph
Fair play to you, all you say is correct and is part of the EU Copyright Directive
http://ukcdr.org/issues/eucd/eucd.html (section 47+) and http://www.scee.presscentre.com/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=2578&NewsAreaID=2
neither of which are limited to any particular console/hardware type (so dvd modders beware)
I hereby take my slaps and count myself told.
Cheers
Softmodding would also be frowned up tbh, same way as people talking about No-CD patches for PC games.
Pug, what you say here is basically true;
However, a quick look at the removed thread (it was moved out of sight rather than deleted completely) followed by a google of the generally recommended chip shows that the above doesn't apply to what was being discussed in the thread. A genuine thread regarding linux on X-box would be judged slightly differently (and tbh would probably to better in the Linux forum)
Thanks for the kind comments guys, I try to explain the reasoning behind the rules rather than just saying "because" and closing the thread. On OcUK unfortunately we have to take the hard line on issues that could potentially reflect badly on the company. I know not everyone agrees with the rules, or our interpretation of the issues that lead to them, but I will say generally you guys are all pretty good at respecting them
-Dolph
Pug, what you say here is basically true;
However, a quick look at the removed thread (it was moved out of sight rather than deleted completely) followed by a google of the generally recommended chip shows that the above doesn't apply to what was being discussed in the thread. A genuine thread regarding linux on X-box would be judged slightly differently (and tbh would probably to better in the Linux forum)
Thanks for the kind comments guys, I try to explain the reasoning behind the rules rather than just saying "because" and closing the thread. On OcUK unfortunately we have to take the hard line on issues that could potentially reflect badly on the company. I know not everyone agrees with the rules, or our interpretation of the issues that lead to them, but I will say generally you guys are all pretty good at respecting them
-Dolph
Soldato
I know for a fact that Xbox modchips with the linux bios on are not ilegal and since when as it become ilegal to talk about them? and thats all you can do on a forum..
I know its OcUK's forum and we must obbey there rules but surely we must have some degree of sensible free speech
I know its OcUK's forum and we must obbey there rules but surely we must have some degree of sensible free speech
Have you read the rest of the thread?
How do you *know* what you claim to know, on what grounds? And how do you compare discussion of chips to run linux with the thread that was deleted where the only chips recommended were ones to circumvent copy protection which, as has already been discussed, is illegal in this country as part of the EU copyright directive and confirmed by caselaw earlier this year?
And on an internet forum, there is no such thing as free speech. Freedom of speech on the internet comes when you start paying the bills to your own site where you can express pretty much whatever you want. It doesn't include coming on to a forum paid for by someone else and then complaining about the rules. For the reasons I have discussed in length in this thread, the discussion of mod chips is not allowed, now, unless you can challenge the reasoning with something more than "I know I'm right", you won't change anything.
-Dolph
Soldato
Good we mostly kind of agree then!
As i say, OCUK can do whatever they choose to with their forums - it is the owners prerogative, and we all accept that when we register - if we dont like it we vote with our fingertips
Now does anyone know where i can download ISOs for my XBox from, i'm fed up paying for games?
j/k
Been away for some lunch.
I didn't see what happened to the deleted/hidden thread after I posted my reply so in all fairness it could have crossed the boundry. The original question and my reply abided by the rules.
And as for legality:
UK law states that it is legal to modify an item that you purchace to alter its function or operation. The only reason Sony won was because they exerted a huge amount of pressure on various governments, some told them to go jump, but some governments such as France didn't. Sony then sued the chip manufactures through the French courts (and somewhere else I can't remember) thereby financially crippling them and putting them out of business.
In the UK it is still completely legal to modify items you buy and modchips come under this. The whole fuss over it mainly comes from the fact that nothing is clear and the laws don't actually offer a definative black-and-white answer. The Sony ruling is more of an anomly over existing law which actually contradicts it.
M$ have stated they have no intention of 'doing a Sony' so Xbox modchips should be safe.
(edit)
As a semi-sidepoint the modchips are sold on the basis of allowing the playing of import games not on the basis of doing illegal stuff. Just as DVDs are sold on the basis of backing up work or backing up DVDs you already own. In fact that and the whole issues of VCR equipment was the basis for the defence against Sony which has already been covered further up the thread.
(another edit
)
But of course that has no relevence to forum rules - which state no discussion of illegal things. If you want no discussion of legal aspects of modchips then that's another rule which you need to put clearly in the FAQ as it isn't covered by the present one.
I didn't see what happened to the deleted/hidden thread after I posted my reply so in all fairness it could have crossed the boundry. The original question and my reply abided by the rules.
And as for legality:
UK law states that it is legal to modify an item that you purchace to alter its function or operation. The only reason Sony won was because they exerted a huge amount of pressure on various governments, some told them to go jump, but some governments such as France didn't. Sony then sued the chip manufactures through the French courts (and somewhere else I can't remember) thereby financially crippling them and putting them out of business.
In the UK it is still completely legal to modify items you buy and modchips come under this. The whole fuss over it mainly comes from the fact that nothing is clear and the laws don't actually offer a definative black-and-white answer. The Sony ruling is more of an anomly over existing law which actually contradicts it.
M$ have stated they have no intention of 'doing a Sony' so Xbox modchips should be safe.
(edit)
As a semi-sidepoint the modchips are sold on the basis of allowing the playing of import games not on the basis of doing illegal stuff. Just as DVDs are sold on the basis of backing up work or backing up DVDs you already own. In fact that and the whole issues of VCR equipment was the basis for the defence against Sony which has already been covered further up the thread.
(another edit
)But of course that has no relevence to forum rules - which state no discussion of illegal things. If you want no discussion of legal aspects of modchips then that's another rule which you need to put clearly in the FAQ as it isn't covered by the present one.
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Caporegime
but is it legal to buy dvd's etc from regions that are not of the same as the buyer happens to be in?
or is it just illegal to sell them?
i see what dolph is saying but i believe it may be illegal to manufacture/sell the modchips
but not illegal to buy/talk about them...
and as no-one is selling then i can see where the aggro comes from
or is it just illegal to sell them?
i see what dolph is saying but i believe it may be illegal to manufacture/sell the modchips
but not illegal to buy/talk about them...
and as no-one is selling then i can see where the aggro comes from
Soldato
Sadly that is not what the vast majority of them sold are used for, hence OcUk's stance on the subject. Surely that is easy to see?
Soldato
not really, concidering their stance on dvd recorders, no.
In fact i'm willing to bet that more people buy xbox mod chips to turn their console into legit media players than people buy dvd recorders solely to back up their data.
In fact i'm willing to bet that more people buy xbox mod chips to turn their console into legit media players than people buy dvd recorders solely to back up their data.
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Whether Microsoft chose to follow it up or not doesn't change the existance of the precedent though. The PS2 ruling is pretty much the most recent one we've had on this issue, so unless it's overturned by the house of lords, it would be the one that sets an example for the law. The big change in copyright law was the EU copyright directive of 2003, which supercedes previous legislation in this country, and it was this act that the judgement was made on. Unless you can find a contradictory judgement since the introduction of the act, the law is pretty clear.
This doesn't mean I agree with it, the EUCD actively prohibits lots of things, including personal backups and so on, it's up there with the american DRM act in terms of giving everything to the company and nothing to the consumer.
And if they just allowed the playing of imports, then the rules regarding them could possibly be relaxed a bit. Unfortunately there isn't one chip out there that I know of that allows playing of imports without also allowing playing of copies.
The problem is, as has been pointed out, it's a grey area, and not one that OcUK wish to be associated with, in much the same way as No-CD cracks, Peer-2-peer software discussion and so on. Everything can and does have a legitimate use, but, because of the association between the forums and the company, a line does have to be drawn.
I'll raise the issue of a specific rule being put in for discussion among the dons/admins, if you would prefer.
-Dolph
But a dvd recorder, on it's own, can't do anything illegal. You try discussing the software to allow you to decrypt and copy a dvd and see what happens to the post, ditto posts about software to bypass CD copy protection, or to burn CD images downloaded off the internet.
I admit we could get into discussions about MP3 compilation CD's and so on, but there is a line that is drawn as to what is and isn't ok.
-Dolph
Soldato
agreed and that's where the problem lies.
Remember what was mentioned before in this thread. an xbox modchip on its own does not allow you to play copied games either, its the firware you update the xbox with that does so where does this line that we have to draw lie?
Yup, it's going to be interesting times regarding the whole area. I know some people are trying to push legislation through America that would effectively outlaw IPods, usb pens etc. etc. etc. in fact we're all going to have to go back to pens and paper soon.
and I'm spent.
Dolph, mate I'm glad you've not taken this the wrong way - just because I have a different opinion as you it doesn't mean I don't respect you guys and what you do here, obviously you know that as you've allowed the thread to continue and I think it's been beneficial to all sides. So, cheers for that.
As for the rules, well I can see the problems associated with inserting things to cover specific topics all the time. Putting something in would probably be of benefit I suppose... oh I dunno
It makes no difference to everyone who's read this but might clarify things for other people.Originally posted by teabagger
Yup, it's going to be interesting times regarding the whole area. I know some people are trying to push legislation through America that would effectively outlaw IPods, usb pens etc. etc. etc. in fact we're all going to have to go back to pens and paper soon.
and I'm spent.
Dolph, mate I'm glad you've not taken this the wrong way - just because I have a different opinion as you it doesn't mean I don't respect you guys and what you do here, obviously you know that as you've allowed the thread to continue and I think it's been beneficial to all sides. So, cheers for that.
As for the rules, well I can see the problems associated with inserting things to cover specific topics all the time. Putting something in would probably be of benefit I suppose... oh I dunno
I know you weren't having a go mate, I understand where you are going from. The problem is we have to stay on the side of caution, which does mean at times we have to interpret the law on the strict side rather than the loose one.
We may not always agree with laws, or rules on a forum, but unfortunately they are the nature of life these days, and sometimes we have to enforce them strictly. There are several areas I would love to see cleared up with regards to legal standings, but I can't see it happening any time soon. We can't put the existance of the forum or the well-being of OcUK as a company on the line if we make a mistake about where the line in drawn, that's the reason we have to take a harsh line on certain issues. OcUK differs from many forums and sites because it's directly associated with a company, and as such would make a good target for some with regards to legal action, sad to say
I'd like to thank the majority of contributors in this thread for keeping it safe and sensible, (I've deleted a few posts, either offensive or pointless, but none from the main contributors), it's nice to see that we can discuss things without needing to get heavy handed.
Chances are this thread will be closed soon, it's served it's purpose and will probably just go round and round with people who haven't read the majority of the discussion, but I'll try and leave it open if that's possible.
-Dolph
Associate
This thread makes for a interesting read glad its not been closed, and that the disscussion is friendly, its what the forums are ment for
