Dinosaurs are not real :(

RDM · 15 Dec 2011 at 17:58

bhavv said:
RDM why dont you believe in God then?

Mainly because none of the gods described so far seem to make an awful lot of sense to me. My personal makeup is that I cannot have faith without proof and none of the proof offered so far is enough.

However that does not mean that at some point in the future someone will be able to present me proof that I can believe in.

bhavv · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:03

RDM said:
Mainly because none of the gods described so far seem to make an awful lot of sense to me. My personal makeup is that I cannot have faith without proof and none of the proof offered so far is enough.

However that does not mean that at some point in the future someone will be able to present me proof that I can believe in.

If someone provides me with valid proof of god's existence then I would believe in it.

That however doesnt mean that my current beliefs are not atheist, nor that I believe or accept that any such proof can possibly be found.

The idea of god has existed for over 7000 years now, and not once has there ever been any evidence to support it. I cant believe that evidence is suddenly going to spring up to prove god's existence, the chance of that happening if far far far too tiny for such a ridiculous belief.

Nitefly · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:04

bhavv said:
I cant agree that not believing in something requires faith.

You are actively believing there isn't a god. It's not simply doubting that there is one.

If you didn't have any faith, then you wouldn't hold an opinion on the matter either way.

dirtychinchilla · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:06

Nitefly said:
You are actively believing there isn't a god. It's not simply doubting that there is one.

If you didn't have any faith, then you wouldn't hold an opinion on the matter either way.

What is your label if you fall into this category? This is the way that people are born, pre-indoctrination.

bhavv · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:07

Nitefly said:
You are actively believing there isn't a god. It's not simply doubting that there is one.

If you didn't have any faith, then you wouldn't hold an opinion on the matter either way.

This isnt faith though. I hold an opinion because I have been presented the idea of god by others, which I reject.

How is this rejection of other peoples ideas based on faith?

Believing in nothing is not faith based. You need an actual thing, or an idea to believe in for it to be based on faith.

Atheists believe that there is no such god or deity based on how theists describe these ideas, it is a rejection of the ideas, not a faith based belief.

Vespasian777 · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:07

There is no God!

Raikiri · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:08

Nitefly said:
Because you believe there isn't a god.

Not really, atheism is the lack of belief. There has to be something for you to believe in it.

Nitefly · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:09

dirtychinchilla said:
What is your label if you fall into this category? This is the way that people are born, pre-indoctrination.

Well, if you hold literally no opinion on it then I guess there isn't an label, but I can see why you might say atheist. However, I'd ascribe atheist to someone who has consciously made a choice that he believes god doesn't exist.

bhavv said:
This isnt faith though. I hold an opinion because I have been presented the idea of god by others, which I reject.

How is this rejection of other peoples ideas based on faith?

I've already answered similar points above.

dirtychinchilla · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:09

bhavv said:
This isnt faith though. I hold an opinion because I have been presented the idea of god by others, which I reject.

How is this rejection of other peoples ideas based on faith?

Exactly. It is only because someone has created this stupid idea that I can have an opinion on it. Doesn't mean that I should fall into any categories that are essentially founded by religion.

dirtychinchilla · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:10

Nitefly said:
Well, if you hold literally no opinion on it then I guess there isn't an label, but I can see why you might say atheist. However, I'd ascribe atheist to someone who has consciously made a choice that he believes god doesn't exist.

But only because I was presented with the idea was I forced to reject it.

bhavv · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:11

Nitefly said:
I've already answered similar points above.

Its not an 'active belief' though as you describe it.

If the idea of God never existed, and no one even knew about it, how would the lack of this idea or any belief in it be considered as being based on faith?

Nitefly said:
Well, if you hold literally no opinion on it then I guess there isn't an label, but I can see why you might say atheist. However, I'd ascribe atheist to someone who has consciously made a choice that he believes god doesn't exist.

But how would anyone make such a choice if they had never been presented the idea of God?

Someone tells me that God exists. I say 'I dont believe that, therefore it doesnt exist to me'.

How is this a faith based decision?

Nitefly · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:13

bhavv said:
If the idea of God never existed, and no one even knew about it, how would the lack of this idea or any belief in it be considered as being based on faith?

It wouldn't.

Raz · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:14

Evoss said:
Religious people can never explain anything scientific...

Wow...what sweeping generalisation. Almost fit for a 'believer'.

bhavv · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:14

Nitefly said:
It wouldn't.

So how are atheist's beliefs based on faith when they believe the same thing?

They are simply bombarded with the idea of god throughout their lives which they reject and choose not to believe. This decision isnt based on faith, it is based on a lack of faith.

dirtychinchilla · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:14

So with the inclusion of people who do believe in god, how does that make what I believe to be based on faith?

Nitefly · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:16

bhavv said:
So how are atheist's beliefs based on faith?

You said this:

bhavv said:
If the idea of God never existed, and no one even knew about it, how would the lack of this idea or any belief in it be considered as being based on faith?

That is a different scenario to the following -> if you did know the idea of a god and a supreme being and then rejected it, then yes, that would be a faith based decision (which is perfectly fine).

Vonhelmet · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:17

Evoss said:
Religious people can never explain anything scientific...

pearsayinglolwut.jpg

Castiel · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:18

Nitefly said:
You are actively believing there isn't a god. It's not simply doubting that there is one.

If you didn't have any faith, then you wouldn't hold an opinion on the matter either way.

Indeed.

The problem is that the word 'belief' is often given a purely religious context, and while an Atheist would state that they hold no beliefs, in a religious sense that is correct, however in a philosophical sense that is not as they often site that there is;

"no extent scientific proof to support the existence of God and ergo there is no God".

The first part of that statement is true, the second part of that statement is a belief based on the first part.

There is a fundamental difference between Atheist Belief and Theist Belief, but the statements "There is a God" and "There is no God" are both faith driven statements, only from different philosophical standpoints based on different acceptance of evidentiary criteria.

Rationale based purely on Scientific evidence would imply agnosticism rather than atheism. (that is a personal opinion and not a judgement on anyone's philosophical standpoint whatever it may be)

bhavv · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:18

Nitefly said:
If you did know the idea of a god and a supreme being and then rejected it, then yes, that would be a faith based decision (which is perfectly fine).

This maybe perfectly fine to you, but it is completely false, and an insult to Atheists.

If I present to you the idea of a magical invisible teapot orbiting Mars, and you reject it, is your rejection based on faith?

dirtychinchilla · 15 Dec 2011 at 18:19

bhavv said:
If I present to you the idea of a magical invisible teapot orbiting Mars, and you reject it, is your rejection based on faith?

Annoyingly, science says the probability is that this exists.