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DirectX and OpenGL will start offering low-level access in order to reduce draw overhead

pgi947 said:
Its being speculated that the new batman game due for release in October is going to be UE4 :)
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The talk is that's going to be UE 3.5 as the devs will have started work quite a while back, and have obviously skirted around the subject of whether it is a UE4 game or not. They won't come out and say it is UE 4, so it's not likely to be.
 
fadeou32 said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't mantle's synergy with consoles outlast any DX12 update to xbone because the PS4 is not likely to get said DX12 update?

I thought the point of mantle was that it was a close/easy port from xbone/ps4 code? How is that likely to change during the shelf-life of the current gen consoles?

I don't get why people are claiming Mantle is dead in the water at all...
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Thats an good point :)
 
MjFrosty said:
Careful T, I know what you look like ;)

The funniest part of all that and steampunks rantings is that wasn't even my initial point. I said it probably will never be out sourced and that not all content will be accessible to vendors namely NV. DM, time after time you come up with these walls of text but the truth is Mantle has not a hope in hells chance of succeeding unless they promote distribution within the next 6 to 11 months.

Riding on the hopes of less engines than I can count on one hand in a 2 year time frame isn't going to be enough. Never mind if it will or not, if you think Mantle doesn't have the capacity to implode on itself then you're clearly more of a Joey than not.

If I'm around long enough I'll try not to say I told you so. Just to level out the hypocrisy, take it up with the author anyway :)
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First point in bold... AMD have said the next version of Mantle is due relatively soon and they will open it up for more dev's at that time.

You clearly do NOT know how alpha testing works. Depending on the software, there is entirely no reason to take on new guys to work with old code a month or two before the new code gets updated with the next major milestone/revision. You're stating AMD is pinning it's hopes on a couple of Engines when AMD has already mentioned a rough time line and talked to many people about releasing a public beta SDK so ALL developers who want to play with it can.

If you really can't understand how adding more people towards the end of the Alpha is literally worthless and will SLOW DOWN the project, you can't be reasoned with.

Second point in bold related to the first, AMD have said at every opportunity and every time asked and in initial info that the SDK will be opened up relatively soon(initial time frame was around April, which you will no doubt call late when it's later than that, despite most other software being late because that is the nature of the industry). It negates your argument.

If AMD don't want more people to use it over time, it would surely fail, give me a single good reason to spread around an early version when the next version is due soon or a single good reason for AMD to not release a public SDK for it.

You also implied with that I don't think there is a chance Mantle will fail, I've never said this, and don't think this.

You KEEP bringing up money AMD supposedly paid, and you always ignore when you are called on it.

AMD and Nvidia have been paying LOTS of companies LOTS of money for exclusives for the past decade...... but because AMD paid for the BF4 exclusive, you ignore this and insist the 10mil was for Mantle and Mantle alone? Yup, perfect logical argument, ignore something that is effectively an industry standard, ignore that "free" games aren't free because AMD/Nvidia PAY for the copies of the games which is a huge part of the fee they are paying and make it all about Mantle because well, nothing other than you want to wilfully miss represent what is going on.

Every time you suggest money or AMD having to pay a dev to use Mantle, you sound like a troll, because it's clearly lying about something Nvidia and AMD have done for years that has nothing at all to do with the devs.

They we have your weird time frames, you insist AMD are pinning hopes on 2 engines for 2 years..... i literally have no idea where that comes from. They gave 3 engines for one thing, the alpha release in September, their initial target for a more general beta SDK was around April. You continue to ignore logic and everything AMD have said to suggest they will do something that will work directly against themselves. Then we have Mantle being dead if they don't support distribution of it in the next 6-11 months. Again we get back to AMD directly saying it will happen long before then. Second why 6-11 months, because of DX12?

Steam OS, Linux, Android and in the future maybe OSX all say hello. DX12, which you instantly presume will be perfect despite MS's attempts to lower overheads for the past 4-5 years unsuccessfully, but lets presume it is. DX12 on linux, not going to happen, on PS4, nope, on android, certainly not and the list goes on and on.

Every time you want to argue against Mantle you pick ONE benefit of Mantle and pretend it's the ONLY benefit.

Thin drivers, simple drivers. Carmack has said openGL is a MESS with drivers because of "all the extensions" in past talks, this hasn't changed, and openGL has no intention of going low level AND Carmack has spoken about Kronos consistently turning down the change to start fresh when having the opportunity.

Low level access, DX12 may or may not bring this, it may or may not achieve the same level of access, we have no idea which hardware they might support such features. We already know Mantle has almost achieved what it wanted to in this regard and shows monumental improvement in driver overhead, at best DX12 can match Mantle here if they get it right.

General debugging tools, dev's involved have said the tools have been a huge step up on Mantle and it was designed from the start with such tools in mind, we'll see if DX12 adds parity in features.

Platform independence, yes you'll throw the predictable "it's only on windows", currently. DX12 is almost certainly never going to be on other platforms, they've had pretty much decades now to do this. AMD have specified their intention to do so, and have every reason to do so. A single APi that can play the same game on almost any platform is a monumental advantage DX12 will not offer. Mantle doesn't offer it yet, but can(and almost certainly will) in the future, this is maybe it's single biggest advantage, with a huge portion of the industry already showing intent to move the hell away from MS/Windows where possible.
 
LOL. Crikey

As far as current tech goes there is frostbite and what else exactly?

The end of an alpha? Where did that come from? It's barely started and never will at this rate. Not much of an alpha if the supported hardware doesn't expand either. But obviously they're not granting developers much freedom for the privilege yet as it's still very much tied in with GCN. Which brings me to the elephant in the room, NVidia's unlikely adoption. So you're going from probably 12 to 18 (for AAA currently in the pipeline) months tying Mantle into a single architecture. That leaves a further time span for anyone else to decide to completely flip what's been worked on in order to suit their own architecture, and get it performing as well as AMDs supporting hardware lineup. Or, you could just not bother and save yourself a large sum of money, refuse to support it and get in bed with the people who currently have the PC market under lockdown, white washing the competition yet again. Steam OS is a different beast but AMD obviously know that Windows isn't going anywhere anytime spoon.

There you have it. So at best DX can offer the same across all hardware a lot quicker than Mantle ever can, a hell of a lot quicker. You seem to know something I don't about Mantle if you're saying there isn't any chance of DX12 being a lot more optimised.

Makes me wonder if you've even bothered to look at the release and support list at all, you clearly won't even play these games anyway, DM. Far too interested in making sure AMDs share price isn't about to collapse.

Microsoft May have left Windows in the dark ages for awhile but they've certainly gotten a lot more seasoned at it than AMD are at the moment. I think some of you, especially you DM refuse to see how Mantle is a potential time bomb. It could thrive and replace DX as the industry standard, but take those odds to the bookies. What it is very much more likely to do, is stew along side for a few years at best until it's made redundant. AMD and Valve have forced Microsofts hand, that is nothing but a good thing. But I won't sit here and play nice by saying things even as quant as it will still be around in 3 years time.
 
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Chris: Yeah and I think we’re so cynical because of how long we've been doing this, but it's so rare to see these companies collaborate on a cooperative basis. Can Mantle’s same goals be achieved through an industry-standard API, and could DX be made to achieve similar things?
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Johan: I think they can go more and more in that direction. I'm not fully sure; there's also the question of time, when you're able to actually, even if you want to go in that direction, when can you deliver that and get everyone on-board and things like that. That’s a pretty important component. Let’s say if it was only DX that went sort of closer to Mantle, that would definitely be a good thing
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humbug said:
Nvidia don't like Mantle because it gives AMD something significant which they don't have.
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That's pretty much the sole reason why the AMD supporters are still pinning their hopes on Mantle as well... now that DX and OGL are promising to offer the same thing Mantle is redundant and yet those same people are still pinning their hopes on Mantle.

Like I've said before if NVidia were behind Mantle those same AMD supporters would be frothing at the mouth in defiance of it.
 
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mmj_uk said:
That's pretty much the sole reason why the AMD supporters are still pinning their hopes on Mantle as well... now that DX and OGL are promising to offer the same thing Mantle is redundant and yet those same people are still pinning their hopes on Mantle.

Like I've said before if NVidia were behind Mantle those same AMD supporters would be frothing at the mouth in defiance of it.
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Pinning hopes on Mantle? My setup was running fine before Mantle came along..

And as for frothing at the mouth.. looks like a lot of nvidia fanboys are doing that right now :D

I was happy before Mantle and i am more happy with Mantle. Either way its all good for us gamers. Funny thing is imagine if when DX12 comes out it actually runs better on AMD cards?

Man there'd be some frothing going on :p

A lots of u guys need to calm down as its getting really stupid in here lately. Im beginning to think i need to give reading these forums a break for a bit.

Same old crap every time.

Mantle runs great for me on Ultra 4xMSAA but for the VRAM memory leak which will obviously get fixed soon. Right now i run every BF4 map on all High settings with 2xMSAA @ 1080p and see a constant 60fps. DX doesnt give me that.

I live for the here and now. And Mantle is here right now. If DX12 gives me similar performance when it comes along then i'll praise that too.

Problem is it aint here right now.. Mantle is.. so deal with it!

:D
 
I dont get what all the bickering is about, mantle is good and has promise but surely more options doing the same is only better.
 
MyBrains said:
Pinning hopes on Mantle? My setup was running fine before Mantle came along..

And as for frothing at the mouth.. looks like a lot of nvidia fanboys are doing that right now :D
..
A lots of u guys need to calm down as its getting really stupid in here lately. Im beginning to think i need to give reading these forums a break for a bit.

Same old crap every time.
..
Problem is it aint here right now.. Mantle is.. so deal with it!

:D
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+1 to this, people need to grow up arguing over API's and which brand they are loyal to is wasting time and energy, more importunity wasting forum space on bickering.
 
Angst said:
I dont get what all the bickering is about, mantle is good and has promise but surely more options doing the same is only better.
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Its because some people want to have the best and when they dont have the best they get butthurt over it. Hence the whining.
 
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