Disabled couple snooped on and accused of fraud by the DWP

[dowie]

Middle numbers don't tell the real story though do they

They do, that's why they're used rather than the mean which is skewed a bit by the wealthiest.

meanwhile in the real world
What are the average savings in the UK?

Why ignore wealth and just look at a fraction of it? The fact is the median household wealth is 300k, so in many cases, a parent passing away would easily put them over the 6k in savings.

I think the key word is "could". In reality I doubt many companies would hire someone they haven't met in person, especially if they have a disability. Also a common issue every worker faces is when you've had no recent employment (or education) it is a red flag.

That's rather missing the point, most companies require you to come into the office. That doesn't negate that remote work exists even for basic things like VPAs.

 

[BowdonUK]

That's rather missing the point, most companies require you to come into the office. That doesn't negate that remote work exists even for basic things like VPAs.

I know remote work exists and works. I was replying from the point of a housebound disabled person.

 

[arknor]

Why ignore wealth and just look at a fraction of it? The fact is the median household wealth is 300k, so in many cases, a parent passing away would easily put them over the 6k in savings.

median is massively boosted by the few percent, it doesnt mean the average family has 300k net worth

 

[dowie]

median is massively boosted by the few percent, it doesnt mean the average family has 300k net worth

I think you're getting confused with the mean either that or you don't know what an average is.

 

[arknor]

I think you're getting confused with the mean either that or you don't know what an average is.

is it something like this

Where you can put a bunch of small numbers at one end, a bunch of big numbers at the other, and pretend everyone has the median? or is it calculated differently when it comes to government statistics?

 

[dowie]

Where you can put a bunch of small numbers at one end, a bunch of big numbers at the other, and pretend everyone has the median? or is it calculated differently when it comes to government statistics?

No one is pretending everyone has the median. Now try comparing with the mean and put some big numbers at the end, what do you see happen? Which is skewed more by the big numbers?

Now which average would you use here if you don't want it to be skewed as much?

And:

median is massively boosted by the few percent, it doesnt mean the average family has 300k net worth

What measure of "average" are you referring to there?

 

[potatolord]

Jeez, that mean/ median thing comes up again and again, doesn't it.

If you have five people, earning £1, £2, £3, £4, £1,000 the median is £3 and the mean is £202.

 

[arknor]

No one is pretending everyone has the median. Now try comparing with the mean and put some big numbers at the end, what do you see happen? Which is skewed more by the big numbers?

Now which average would you use here if you don't want it to be skewed as much?

And:



What measure of "average" are you referring to there?

well https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/apr/17/who-owns-england-thousand-secret-landowners-author
that kinda move the "median" a long the bar a long way for a start

In 2020, the ONS calculated that the richest 10% of households hold 43% of all wealth. The poorest 50%, by contrast, own just 9%.

The Scale of Economic Inequality in the UK | The Equality Trust

The UK has the 7th most unequal incomes of 30 countries in the developed world, but is about average in terms of wealth inequality. While the top fifth have nearly 50% of the country's income and 60% of the country's wealth, the bottom fifth have only 4% of the income and only 1% of the wealth.

equalitytrust.org.uk

If you have five people, earning £1, £2, £3, £4, £1,000 the median is £3 and the mean is £202.

yea so the average person must have 202 in their pocket right?


When the poorest 50% own 9% of all the wealth in the country median is a number that means nothing....


How about we take the bottom 70% of the UK, then do the median again and see what the number is, I'm guessing its a lot more realistic

 

[dowie]

well https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/apr/17/who-owns-england-thousand-secret-landowners-author
that kinda move the "median" a long the bar a long way for a start

No, it doesn't, how have you concluded that the "1%" have moved the median along the bar a long way for a start? By definition they're only 1% of the bar... go and re-read how to calculate a median as it seems the main issue here is that you still haven't grasped it.

Note you claimed the median didn't represent the average but you don't seem to have been able to suggest what does represent the average or what you even think you mean by "average"?

yea so the average person must have 202 in their pocket right?

See in your reply to @potatolord there you're citing the mean of £202 not the median, if you look again you'll see the median is £3 right? See the difference?

 

[arknor]

No, it doesn't, how have you concluded that the "1%" have moved the median along the bar a long way for a start? By definition they're only 1% of the bar... go and re-read how to calculate a median as it seems the main issue here is that you still haven't grasped it.

is it because that 1% own half of England? they might only be 1% of the bar but they represent about half of it in reality.
and the poorest 50% own 9%?

you know if the bar was turned into a scale which way it would fall right?

The average number when the gap between poor and wealth is so massive, is meaning less.

you think the average person you see in the street has 300k networth? cos thats what your median is telling me

​

 

[dowie]

is it because that 1% own half of England?
and the poorest 50% own 9%?

you know if the bar was turned into a scale which way it would fall right?

And which would be impacted more by that - the mean or the median?

you think the average person you see in the street has 300k networth? cos thats what your median is telling me

Household - half of the households in the UK have at least 300k if not much more. 300k is the minimum for half of the country - or was back in 2020, it's perhaps increased now.

So back to the topic - it's hardly surprising that the death of a parent might involve a check to see whether there are more than 6k in savings now.

 

[arknor]

And which would be impacted more by that - the mean or the median?

so what your telling me is when bezos and zuckerborg moved to hawaii, suddenly the average net wealth of Hawaiians population massively increased, and now everyone living there is a lot better off.
or does it just look that way on paper with a certain formula, one which has almost no reflection of reality

 

[dowie]

so what your telling me is when bezos and zuckerborg moved to hawaii, suddenly the average net wealth of Hawaiians population massively increased, and now everyone living their is a lot better off.
or does it just look that way on paper with a certain formula, one which has almost no reflection of reality

No, if you're making an argument like that then I'm just telling you that you still don't understand what the median is and why it's different to taking the mean.

 

[potatolord]

...

yea so the average person must have 202 in their pocket right?


When the poorest 50% own 9% of all the wealth in the country median is a number that means nothing....


How about we take the bottom 70% of the UK, then do the median again and see what the number is, it won't be anywhere near 300k



usually when people die they don't leave 300k of stuff behind.

Median is an irrelevant skewed number, it doesn't represent how the majority of the country actually are. even if it is the "median"

surely everyone sees the logic here or am I truly backwords ?

No- that mean doesn't get distributed, it's just a calculation.

This is a good way to understand the difference;
The mean number of legs a person has in the UK is 1.98 legs, as some people have lost one or both legs.
The median number of legs a person in the UK has is 2.

Wealth is slightly different- a lot of that is property. You can have a low income, with relatively high wealth (house owned outright)- plenty of pensioners in that position.

To take your hawaii example, yes- on average the mean wealth would increase- but that's spread across a population of millions, so not much. The median would likely not shift at all.

 

[Retro6]

People will be voting for more of it I expect.

The most important thing is, getting the Tories out and that means voting Labour as they are the only party that stand a chance of wiping the Tories out. I'm seeing a lot of Liberal Democrat signs up outside peoples home... if people vote for that party again then the Tories will remain.

As far as I'm aware, you can legally have an ISA account or savings account or both while on sickness benefits. Your only allowed up to 6K savings so it really doesn't matter what bank accounts you have or what type of accounts you have. The first 6 grand isn't counted and anything over you'll have to pay back. There is often a lot more to these stories.

 

[moon man]

Lots of news at the moment about proposed ? changes to pip for depression and anxiety, I have suffered from both and never far from both but never been down the benefits route.
Guessing it will effect some people in genuine need as well as the CBA crew

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...n-or-anxiety-could-lose-sickness-benefits-pip

 

[Semple]

Lots of news at the moment about proposed ? changes to pip for depression and anxiety, I have suffered from both and never far from both but never been down the benefits route.
Guessing it will effect some people in genuine need as well as the CBA crew

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...n-or-anxiety-could-lose-sickness-benefits-pip

Unfortunately as with most things in society, those who genuinely don't need something ruin it for those who genuinely do need something.

 

[Richard - London]

Like MPs and their flats paid by taxpayers.

If your company expected you to work away from your home office it would pay for hotels, in the case of MP's they are expected to be in London a lot, and paying to rent a flat/mortgage a flat is cheaper than putting all the mp's up in hotels.

 

[BowdonUK]

If your company expected you to work away from your home office it would pay for hotels, in the case of MP's they are expected to be in London a lot, and paying to rent a flat/mortgage a flat is cheaper than putting all the mp's up in hotels.

I've always thought the government could build an MP apartment block in Greater London somewhere that offered cheap rooms for MP's.

The government could exempt the construction of most taxes and costs.

It's like how mill owners built residential housing for the workers back in the day.

 

[Bluecube]

That’s too sensible and demonstrates common sense