Discussing GCN Architecture, Performance & The Future

[LtMatt]

Very interesting article here, well worth a read.

Article discusses GCN, AMD CPU/APU performance as well as features like TrueAudio/Mantle/TressFX.

I've highlighted a couple of points made about Mantle, but this is not the theme of the article, hence not in the Mantle thread. Just making that clear for those in doubt.

What were the factors prompting AMD to create the Mantle API? Was it simply a case of helping developers solve the major weaknesses of PC gaming architecture (the overhead) in preparation for the next generation of consoles and game engines?

Game developers did the rounds in the industry, asking all of the hardware vendors with a stake in graphics for a solution to make PCs more “console-like” with respect to hardware utilization efficiency and programming simplicity. They recognized that PC gaming could learn a lot from its siblings in the living room. Only AMD took these requests from the negotiation stage to the manpower and money phase, and Mantle was born!

Regarding Mantle’s performance, it was mentioned at CES that the performance increase with Battlefield 4 was up to 45 percent. Will this sort of performance boost be the normal for titles under Mantle?

Every game is different, of course, but we’ve said all along that we didn’t undertake the Mantle project to chase two or three percent performance improvements. With each game, we’ll be publishing a full set of data and we’re confident people will be pleased with the uplift.”
Even if the performance of the Mantle API isn’t up to 45 percent per game, and only works out to be half as much, that’s still going to be a significant difference. This can turn a title barely running in 30FPS into the comfortable to play territory, or titles which are just shy of the target of 60 shooting way past that number. Obviously it’s still too early to make judgement calls quite yet, but for titles that have AMD’s Mantle API available, Nvidia could be in for a fight.
I’m hoping there’ll be news of Nvidia embracing the technology, or some alternative to start to resolve this.

Audio technology on PC’s has been fairly stagnant for a number of years, and requires high CPU overhead for processing. Does AMD’s TrueAudio processor take care of all of the processing work with audio, or is there some processing left for the CPU to perform on the audio?

AMD TrueAudio fully offloads the CPU if the developer maximally utilizes its capabilities. It’s a programmable audio pipeline, so it will only shoulder as much of the burden as it’s told to. Regardless, AMD TrueAudio sends the voice(s) it’s processing and rendering to the user’s existing audio hardware as a passthrough to the endpoint device (e.g. headphones).

Full Article
Part1:http://www.redgamingtech.com/exclus...n-architecture-performance-the-future-part-1/

Part2:http://www.redgamingtech.com/exclus...tecture-performance-the-future-part-1-page-2/

Part3:http://www.redgamingtech.com/exclus...ntle-performance-rop-gpu-steam-machines-more/


So its up to Nvidia to embrace Mantle it seems.

 

[LtMatt]

You won't get a ' discussion ' on this forum.

Good read though.

That was the title of the article to be fair, but one can hope.

 

[LtMatt]

Mhm, no that's not the aim at all. They cannot, and won't. The fact it's suggested they can only implies that Mantle isn't as 'down to the core' as they're implying. Which I'm not doubting it is, but I think AMD know full well Nvidia cannot use this without making some drastic changes to their GPUs. And with the greatest of respect Matt, you need to stop the double standard opinion of how Mantle really is lol. I say that as just-as enthusiastic about Mantle as you are believe me, but Mantle definitely does not have an open door policy, it is a smoke screen.

Well you obviously know more than Johan Anderson who worked alongside AMD to create it. He's on record as saying the aim is for Mantle to become open. Who to believe, forum user frosty or technical director who helped create Mantle? Hmmm...

Johan Andersson: I agree, yeah, and, also the vision for Mantle - well it can play out in many ways. You can't really say for sure but the vision for Mantle is that it can become an open API also and that's something we're completely open for. It's something AMD is open for also, it's just that that's not the right way to go at it initially...

Source
http://techreport.com/news/25651/ma...ite-games-dice-calls-for-multi-vendor-support

But the "pink elephant in the room," as he called it, is multi-vendor support. Andersson made it clear that, while it only supports GCN-based GPUs right now, Mantle provides enough abstraction to support other hardware—i.e. future AMD GPUs and competing offerings. In fact, Andersson said that most Mantle functionality can work on most modern GPUs out today.

Source
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/johan-andersson-battlefield-4-interview,review-32839-8.html

 

[LtMatt]

could and will are two entirely different things, since this is covered hundreds of times over in the main mantle thread I really fail to see why we needed a new thread, it could have been contained to the wretched hive of scum and villainy that is the mantle threadnought

The article is not just about Mantle though if you'd bothered to read it before passing judgement, so yes it does deserve its own thread. Those were just two questions i picked out but there are lots more about GCN tech/features as a whole.

Nice to see another Nvidia user looking forward to Mantle though.

 

[LtMatt]

Well that is half the battle isn't it. With you at least...

You seem to believe every single thing you read. Is Johan Anderson qualified to comment? Barely any more than I am. Would he have the foggiest how to programme drivers? NO! He wouldn't. And trust me, he wouldn't...

You're looking at it as if I am saying to you "Mantle is closed". No it's not closed, nor is it an open standard yet. I've no doubt it will be in some fashion eventually for others to use at their own discretion. But what you're not realising is Johan Anderson is looking in the long term. This is something he's been wanting at an industrial level for quite-some-time. So yes, I'm sure he would very much like to see Mantle operating on other vendor hardware. But unfortunately that doesn't make him qualified to say it will be.

It sounds so easy to say out loud, just programme some instruction sets for your own hardware and you're in. But unfortunately in the real world that's not how it works (well it is, but it's not that simple). And speaking morbidly Mantle has far more chance of being dead in the water, than it has Nvidia adopting it anywhere near as primordially as AMD.

Well ill stick with the people who are most knowledgeable about this and im sorry but their opinion and thoughts hold far more sway with me than yours. Time will tell i guess. Considering he worked closely with AMD creating it, id say he has a pretty good idea about what it can do and has gone on record several times say it can support other and competing gpu's. Just that initially it will only work with GCN tech as Mantle is currently Beta.

You mean the same guy who is behind one of the most broken high profile game releases in recent history? not sure I'd take him very seriously.

It was EA's decision to rush the game out though in an unfinished state and that was to damage cod sales.

 

[LtMatt]

But Matt stated that basically NV have no choice but to adopt, which is pure nonsense.

No i didn't. I said its up to Nvidia to embrace it and i got that from interview in the OP. If Nvidia don't embrace it, then it won't work on their gpu's end of. The only person that will suffer in this situation is Nvidia gpu users. I never said they had to embrace it or they will go bust or whatever, far from it. I don't think they will embrace it. The point is and was that the long term plan for Mantle is not to lock Nvidia out from using it.The stumbling block in all this will likely be Nvidia themselves.

Spoiler

Every game is different, of course, but we’ve said all along that we didn’t undertake the Mantle project to chase two or three percent performance improvements. With each game, we’ll be publishing a full set of data and we’re confident people will be pleased with the uplift.”
Even if the performance of the Mantle API isn’t up to 45 percent per game, and only works out to be half as much, that’s still going to be a significant difference. This can turn a title barely running in 30FPS into the comfortable to play territory, or titles which are just shy of the target of 60 shooting way past that number. Obviously it’s still too early to make judgement calls quite yet, but for titles that have AMD’s Mantle API available, Nvidia could be in for a fight.
I’m hoping there’ll be news of Nvidia embracing the technology, or some alternative to start to resolve this.

Johan Andersson: I agree, yeah, and, also the vision for Mantle - well it can play out in many ways. You can't really say for sure but the vision for Mantle is that it can become an open API also and that's something we're completely open for. It's something AMD is open for also, it's just that that's not the right way to go at it initially...

Source
http://techreport.com/news/25651/ma...ite-games-dice-calls-for-multi-vendor-support

But the "pink elephant in the room," as he called it, is multi-vendor support. Andersson made it clear that, while it only supports GCN-based GPUs right now, Mantle provides enough abstraction to support other hardware—i.e. future AMD GPUs and competing offerings. In fact, Andersson said that most Mantle functionality can work on most modern GPUs out today.

Source
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/johan-andersson-battlefield-4-interview,review-32839-8.html

 

[LtMatt]

No reason to hold Mantle off any further then

I've got a feeling the wait is almost over Gregorio.

 

[LtMatt]

I'm predicting Tuesday the 28'th Jan

Its looking the likely date.

... *2020 arrives... "honestly guys, it's coming soon"* ...

Lol.

I can just see myself now making a prediction in 2019 with my walking stick that its coming any day now. Only to drop dead just before the patch goes live 2020. My soul would then be stuck in an API purgatory.

 

[LtMatt]

Mantle was announced 25/26 Sept 2013

Todays date is 20 Jan 2014

Is there any chance of no more separate threads for Mantle until it finally shows up and we can talk about it with first hand experience.

There's only one active Mantle thread on the last 10 pages of the gpu section Kaaperz. But now you've said this i want to start a new one, damn you!

 

[LtMatt]

This one looks very active to me.

All this talk about Mantle is a bit like watching a bluey to the end in the expectation that they are going to get married.

Read the article. Its not actually only about Mantle, i just highlighted the answers to two Mantle questions in the OP. The article covers AMD CPU/APU questions/performance/features as well as GCN features like Mantle/TrueAudio/TressFX etc.

 

[LtMatt]

I notice both you and ltmatt are a bit negative about the credentials of forum users here in this thread - amongst the regular posts here they are infact a few people who do or did work for nVidia, shiny entertainment, frontier, sony, etc. not everyone who posts here is just some armchair expert who happens to have read a few articles on the subject.

I only took someone who worked to create Mantle over the voice of a regular forum user, Frosty. I was not rude about it either. So i don't appreciate that Rroffles. Make me a cup of tea and we'll say no more about it.

 

[LtMatt]

You 'take' everything at face value. Because little Johan is voicing for multi vendor support because Mantle has the capacity that means it's a given. You can quote DICE till you're blue in the face Matt, unlike you I conclude from my own reasoning and not other peoples.

I won't hold it against you when the time comes, don't worry.

As i said i take the opinion of someone who worked with AMD closely to create something over the voice of a forum user who is stating his opinion. That's my choice.

Don't appreciate what? I'm not the one going around calling people by silly childish names like "Rroffles" so don't get on my case about what was just a headsup not to assume all the regular forum users don't happen to have industry credentials.

I guess the jokey tone of my post didn't come across. I thought you liked that nickname.

I apologise if Frosty has Industry standard credentials. I'm betting he does not though.

 

[LtMatt]

Matts "Rroffles" looks tongue in cheek to me Roff, he does that with just about every one he can think up a name for, he calls Boomstick 'Broomstick', mind you so do i now...

Just take it for what it is, you take yourself far to seriously. this place needs lightning up a bit and IMO Matt does a good job of doing that.

Very true Bumhug that is my pet name for Broomstick. I'm sure Gregorio, The Italian Stallion and Rusty Galloway can all confirm i do like to give people non offensive nicknames. That's just my style and anyone who knows me properly know i don't have a nasty bone in my body. Sure i got a big bone between my legs, but this is neither the time nor place to discuss that.

Tongue in cheek or not hes using it in a demeaning and childish manner and not called for coming from someone who isn't a mate. Its not really worth me bothering about normally but if hes gonna take the tone of me being rude in the manner of "don't appreciate that" then well it goes both ways.

Sorry Rroffles i was trying to come across as a appalled middle class snob. I guess sometimes you mistake my attempt at humour for being demeaning or childish.

I honestly meant no harm by it and apologise if it offended you.

 

[LtMatt]

"not a mate"


Well, you don't make many friends by having a go at someone for giving you an affectionate nickname.

I liked Rroffles as well.

Guess that's another one off the christmas card list. Gregorio, Whyscotty and Rusty Galloway are my only Nvidia friends on the forum.

 

[LtMatt]

I apologise if it was meant entirely light hearted, it been used around here by people i.e. spoffle as a way to have a dig at me.

No worries. Not seen 'Spoffles' around here in ages. Pretty sure he got a life ban from the gpu section.

I hope its still ok to call you Rroffles. I think its kind of cute in a totally non homo sort of way.

 

[LtMatt]

You can apologise when the time comes Matt .

I'll be sure to conduct a nice multi quote for you with some recognised industry names. Oh no wait we tried that with John Carmack but apparently he doesn't know what he's talking about either.

You can do mate. I'm taking AMD and Johan at their word. Can't blame me for that as they're the ones who not only created the API but have worked on it and know what it is capable of. If im wrong then ill hold up my hands, as im sure you'll do the same. Unless im mistaken, i don't think Carmack has worked with Mantle yet.

 

[LtMatt]

Can you tell me where I've said Johan is 'wrong' whilst I think about it? If I recall earlier I was telling you what was in fact what he actually said but elaberated on it to explain WHY it won't happen. If you want to be pedantic about it and quote till the cows come home, then really I haven't discredited him other than saying he most likely can't compile drivers. Which he most likely cannot given his credentials online. What the chap wants to happen and what will are two entirely different things in the instance I spoke of. So...nergh!?

Unless im mistaken, your argument is that Nvidia can't use Mantle? Well the quotes ive provided contradict that opinion completely. I posted them on the first page. Mantle is not tied to GCN and can work on competing GPU solutions. It will be up to Nvidia to embrace and support Mantle in the end. It will only work on GCN initially but its still in Beta and support for other gpu's will be added further down the line. That's the plan and currently i have no reason to doubt that information is false. Keeping Mantle to GCN only makes no sense.

Spoiler

Johan Andersson: I agree, yeah, and, also the vision for Mantle - well it can play out in many ways. You can't really say for sure but the vision for Mantle is that it can become an open API also and that's something we're completely open for. It's something AMD is open for also, it's just that that's not the right way to go at it initially...

Source
http://techreport.com/news/25651/ma...ite-games-dice-calls-for-multi-vendor-support

But the "pink elephant in the room," as he called it, is multi-vendor support. Andersson made it clear that, while it only supports GCN-based GPUs right now, Mantle provides enough abstraction to support other hardware—i.e. future AMD GPUs and competing offerings. In fact, Andersson said that most Mantle functionality can work on most modern GPUs out today.

Source
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/johan-andersson-battlefield-4-interview,review-32839-8.html

If its genuinely meant humorously I don't mind. With the number of people who give me stick here for having a different opinion rather than discussing the point its hard to differentiate sometimes.

Good man. Now lets hug this out.

 

[LtMatt]

Pretty much the same way that AMD just had to embrace PhysX then....Just saying

That's different and you know it.

 

[LtMatt]

I really need to get thinking of a nickname for Whyscotty. For some reason its not so easy with him. Efforts must be doubled on my part.

Regarding Physx and Mantle, im pretty sure AMD won't charge a licensing fee to use Mantle. If AMD keep Mantle to just their own gpu's it won't work. It will become like Physx and will see a small number of titles each year and no more. Mantle has to become open and everyone knows it. A long term closed API is not going to get widely adopted.

 

[LtMatt]

It has to be GCN only for a while i think. Afterall mantle is not finished, its not 1.0 or 1.1, its beta. I'm sure AMD won't want to rush it to leverage an advantage for a while and who can blame them. However i think we all know it will have to become open to be long term successful. They'll want as many people using it as possible, especially if the performance increase reported is accurate.